Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 10, 2012 at 8:21am

I think Mike P sent me to Dominic Manning's site, http://www.behindthescenes.org.uk/ for my opinion on the Michael Jacksons earlier this year. I believe he sent me to a couple of others, too. 

I told him that I didn't think they were good (I probably asked Roger to make sure first). I discussed them with a few people I was working with on forgery issues in the UK and they did not believe they were bad—these MJs came from a source they considered highly reputable, who said they got them in-person. They are likely the prevalent Michael Jacksons sold by AFTAL dealers—at least after he passed away.

They went into the stack of things to look into, but there were other things that had been on the front burner. Now, that has changed.

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Permalink Reply by Steven Jackson on August 10, 2012 at 8:35am

hey steve / roger here is to of the messages i had got from dom when i first asked where/when he got them

 

"Some of the Michael Jackson’s I have where obtained by me in London and New York and some were also obtained in LA  in March 2009."

 "Each item will come with a Hologram on the back from myself and AFTAL, which is also your COA. This is tamper proof. I will also add a Collectors Proof tag to the item which you can register with Collectors Proof online."

 

then this later on when the card was recived without the signing info on the back

"We have a lot of signed cards from Michael and very rarely wrote the information down as at the time they were just white cards. However, I believe the card would have been signed in LA at the Bel Air hotel in March 2009."

to me that sounded like he got the personally,or atleast claiming he got similar ones personally..........

 

later i had sent the image to mike frost- he said he had concerns over the spacing size ect so i asked gary, gary asked for the source when i showed him the picture

me

"Thank you the Michael Jackson was bought from UACC Registered Dealer #260 and AFTAL Dealer  005 behindthescenes do you believe it is questionable?"

 

 garys response

"Not at all, it was signed in LA, and I am sure that Dominic would have told you that. If you ask him, he will also be able to tell you more, but did you ask?"

 "You can always find people who will disagree. In my experience collectors know very little and normally base any opinion on what they have in their own collection, and these will often be fakes purchased on eBay, normally with fantastic provenance!"

 

later on gary also told me

 

now this sounds like dominic got them himself

"It would have been LA or New York, as Dominic got him in both, and I saw some of them before Jackson died as well, and I turned them down at around £25 each!"

 "There are good dealers on eBay, but there are also very bad one s who will tell you whatever you want hear if it makes you buy the item. Provenance is normally just a story! nothing more."

 

i also attached 2 other mjs that dom had offered to sell me i have pictures of i believe 5 but the signatures all look like those in the pictures attached

 

In this business, provenance means very little, and when it comes to items purchased on eBay with provenance, nothing at all!

 

All the best.

 

 

Attachments: No photo uploads here

• Michael Jackson a11.jpg, 72 KB
• Michael Jackson b2.jpg, 67 KB

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on August 10, 2012 at 8:53am

These are horrible!  There is no excuse for any dealer to make this bad of a mistake.  I do have to say that Dominic doesn't come out and say he got the card you have himself directly but it certianly was implied that he did.  This is an absolute mess!  If I hadn't had a friend here in Houston that trusted Adrian fully I would never have seen the stack of 11x14 photos that Adrian himself sent.  This is key information to putting the puzzle together.  We know the original supplier and the distributor. 

I do ask this of the dealers that got fooled by these; why didn't you get suspicous when stacks of these beautiful 11x14 color photos started going around?  Greed is the easiest way to catch a forger and offering stacks and I mean stacks of beautiful color photos is the ultimate sign of greed.  Wake up!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 10, 2012 at 9:31am

The MJ ending in "a11" is an early version of the style we now know as Adrian's. I don't think the one ending in "b2" is different enough that I can't tell if it's by the same person or not.

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Permalink Reply by Mike P on August 10, 2012 at 9:06am

Yes I did Steve; I sent a bunch of AFTAL sites for your opinion on the MJs.  After you said one looked atypical, and almost every MJ looked the same (even on different sites!), I began to wonder why they had so many questionable MJs in their group.  Now we know!

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on August 10, 2012 at 8:58am

I will be very curious to see how they handle this situation.  We all the truth now and only more information is going to come out.

You have to handle it like you would any refund from a dealer, contact them and tell him what you learned, I'm sure Garry will confirm this and go from there.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 12, 2012 at 6:13pm

I'm just catching up on individual replies here...sorry. AFTAL dealers have to issue refunds for forgeries, or they're kicked out, so hopefully he wants to remain a member.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 10, 2012 at 9:53am

If reputable third-party authenticators like PSA/DNA, JSA and specialists like Roger Epperson were in the UK, the legit dealers would have figured out years ago that their trusted suppliers were selling them forgeries. 

Granted, PSA and JSA could both benefit from being less of a production line. But the autograph industry is a far safer place with them than without them. What's you're seeing in the UK is what it would be like here if there were no good TPAs.

Far more often than not, the people screaming the loudest against PSA and JSA are the ones whose autographs are least likely to pass.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 10, 2012 at 10:40am

Take a look at the original deleted discussion and see what was said about PSA at the very beginning Steve.  If I'm not mistaken a comment was made by this dealer.  I have always purchased from reputable dealers.  I am willing to pay the extra money for peace of mind.  This is all very disturbing to say the least.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 12, 2012 at 6:29pm

Garry's not big on PSA or JSA...few dealers outside of the US are. But he's not constantly talking against them like some are. That's what I meant about those who scream the loudest.

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Permalink Reply by DB on August 10, 2012 at 2:15pm

Steve, reputable "my a##".  If it weren't for specialists like Epperson, Zarelli, Cornish, Bob(s) & others at a number of auction houses we would be in dire straights.

Sometimes I feel you are so Pro TPAs you are completely blind to how many errors and some of major magnitude of errors they make as in the Mastro Indictments or as reported on Hauls of Shame (- the rhetoric).  The out on the Hestons - was perfect; well they didn't know!  It's their jobs to know...   What about the Gleason that was secretarial that they OK'd on a QO!  Just like these AFTAL people.. it was their jobs to know...not simply say - well it's Dominic the Donkey selling them and he is a good burro!

But the autograph industry is a far safer place with them than without them. and that is your opinion and only yours.  My feeling is they are a very very dangerous two edge sword just like GAI became.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 10, 2012 at 2:39pm

DB,

In my opinion PSA/DNA are reputable. But you are right—they're far from perfect. All you have to do is go anywhere in the world besides the US to see how much worse the autograph authenticity problem would be without them.

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