Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DB on August 15, 2012 at 1:35pm

No offense taken grant.  My preference is white.

I have a spelling checker
I disk covered four my PC.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot see.

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Permalink Reply by J.Seah on August 15, 2012 at 10:26am

"AFTAL held a meeting with all board members where they viewed all the photo and video and say it conclusively proves, beyond any doubt,  that they are in fact genuine and that Adrain was there every time he said he was."

Wow!! This discussion started on August 8, 2012 and the AFTAL board members had already met and viewed all the photos/videos to conclusively prove that every in-person autographs that Adrian had gotten are genuine. These were all done in the past few days??

I have my doubt in this statement by AFTAL.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 15, 2012 at 4:56am

It was apparent from the beginning of the discussion about the Clint Eastwood that everyone who was involved in the discussion had only the intention of removing questionable items from the market.  Nobody expected it to develop into what it has become.  Garry was not treated any differently than any other professional when people feel upset about something related to their profession.  The way that I interpreted most of the discussion has been that he was simply questioned as a reputable dealer selling questionable items and never attacked personally.  To suggest otherwise is simply not fair and is a distraction from what the main issue has been from the beginning.  Were some a bit harsher than others in delivering their opinion?  Perhaps.  But this is nothing more than other professionals such as doctors, lawyers, police officers and teachers face on a daily basis when people feel that there is room for improvement.  I think that everyone can at least agree that improvements need to be made in the hobby on both sides.

Steve, have you in fact confirmed that the statement was actually posted by AFTAL?  It sounds like you did.  Also, were you ever able to confirm the identity of Dave Edwards?  Since you haven’t restored his post it appears that you have not.  Is there any connection between the two?  I am also curious about the recent silence of Roger since the AFTAL statement was posted.  Perhaps he is simply tired of the drama at this point.  Sarcasm intended.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 15, 2012 at 7:16am

Mike,

Yes, I confirmed that AFTAL made the statement published here.

Roger was at a fireworks convention in Indiana and should be back in the office today. 

Dave Edwards refused to provide his contact info to confirm his identity and was rather miffed that I required it.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 15, 2012 at 9:28am

Thanks Steve.

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Permalink Reply by Robin McKay on August 15, 2012 at 12:38pm

Totally agree that collectors are led into a false sense of security - they gain your trust with the cheaper items and then scam you on the more expensive items. It has happened to me as other members already know. What makes it all so laughable is that AFTAL are supposed to police organisations, vet their stock etc. How can that be the case when these supposed dealers sell dud material? Sorry but the numbers don't add up there and it also sounds to me like a shoddy setup but that is an opinion of mine, NOT fact necessarily which is what I want to be very clear about. I could name and shame dealers but some legit ones can make mistakes. However this thread about Autografiica is interesting.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 15, 2012 at 12:52pm

I'm glad that you stopped by Robin.  I was wondering if you had read any of this discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Robin McKay on August 15, 2012 at 1:19pm

Thanks Mike - all I can say to collectors who buy off the websites (regardless of their integrity) is always get a receipt and also keep the certificate of authenticity too. 

You can use this info once you've got the item authenticated and get your money back - some may see it as a pointless exercise because of the expense and time involved, but it works to put fraudsters to bed. 

I've recently, as said, processed my own collection and in my opinion, dug out the question items but I have the info I need to start taking the offensive - I got burned, it happens, but I won't be the first and it seems to be happening a lot that items in people's collections, even years down the line, turn out to be forgeries. 

Might be the wrong thing to say but I'm glad I'm not alone in this otherwise I'd feel like a prat and I feel like we can all work together to put a stop to this. 

I must admit I'm not impressed with AFTAL - they're supposed to be the legitimate authority on policing these items and what does one find? There's something, in my opinion, potentially wrong behind the scenes. 

Of all the items I have policed in my own collection (I am no expert), you can tell the ones which are crooked, in my humble opinion and the majority of them are from one dealer in particular, whom for the moment shall remain nameless and a couple of others I have my doubts about.

One I bought I have to kick myself over as I bought from a non UACC/AFTAL dealer though even that's no guarantee of authenticity but I feel that despite my burning experiences (I've lost up to four figures in money on this due to the fact that dealers lure you in with the potentially legitimate cheaper items and rob you on the more expensive ones), I still have had some great successes too.

Those would in my opinion at least count for something and I can work on the bad ones I have and you can distinguish between the good and the iffy dealers in the process.

Just to finish, buying off the net, I now abide by two rules (burned or not), ALWAYS if you can get the receipt and keep everything else you get with the item you receive. I've been burned for a lot of money but I was taken in by supposedly legitimate dealers but in fairness, they might not have been aware but for those that were, great shame on them. 

It's certainly opened my eyes and am surprised by what's been going on to some degree recently in the autograph market - I am happy today because I got my Tony Curtis autograph come through. Whoopee. Happy days. 

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 15, 2012 at 3:10pm

I’m with you Robin.  If I have learned anything in the past month it is that nobody is looking out for the little guy.  We are treated as if we are nothing more than insignificant collectors and the institutional organizations that are supposed to protect us seem to be rallying around each other only to protect themselves as well as the reputable dealers that they also represent.  As you have observed, there appears to be something potentially wrong going on behind the scenes.  We therefore need to look out for each other which is what this website has been very successful in allowing us to do.  That would explain the enormous criticism directed at members of this website from the powers that be. 

This also applies to eBay.  People are constantly purchasing items that are not authentic under the assumption that eBay would not allow such items to be sold on their website.  What the unknowing buyer fails to understand is that in many cases it has become nothing more than a garage sale.  In a blog posted by DB recently he voiced his concern that we have lost an ally at eBay recently and we do not know if he will be replaced by someone of the same ability.  It is all very upsetting but I suppose that like most everything else it will simply have to get worse before average people finally take notice and demand that autograph dealers be held accountable for what they sell or be forced to close shop.  I am sure that the hobby would be much better today if the average person had any idea how many forgeries they owned.  They would certainly demand that something be done to correct it.

Of course if a dealer makes a mistake they should be given the benefit of the doubt. The problem is that many of these dealers continue to operate without any true oversight.  Imagine restaurant owners not having to answer to the Board of Health or factory owners not having to answer to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.  Even worse, imagine the restaurant or factory owner being one of the inspectors. 

Of course we are only talking about autographs here and not a person’s health and I am not advocating government involvement.  The organizations in place could do a very good job if they really wanted to.  Perhaps they are and we just don’t appreciate it because we don't see it up front.

 

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on August 15, 2012 at 5:05pm

Mike,

What are Steve and I, chopped liver?  We put our necks on the line every day protecting the average collector; and I have the attornies fees to prove it.

 

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 15, 2012 at 5:47pm

Just because you aren’t a modest collector it doesn't mean that I don't consider you to be one of the "little guys".  When I mentioned the website being valuable I obviously include you and Steve as part of the many valuable voices keeping a watch over what is going on out there in the world of autograph collecting.  As a matter of fact I consider you to be one of the “inspectors” that I was referring to above.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  You guys are doing a great job and I don’t believe that I have ever said anything otherwise.  Welcome back and don’t forget to keep us posted on your conclusions regarding the Michael Jackson pieces since we have recently been assured of their authenticity by AFTAL.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on August 16, 2012 at 5:06am

Hi everyone , I have read and read Like most and I decided I had to say what I thought on this matter .
First of all am Jason Thanos I am one of the very few IN PERSON dealer / collector in UK and trust there are not that many . I am also Aftal 78 . I have been doing for over a decade and I have put more miles on the clock than anyone I know in Europe . I have been doing Canne since 2004 I have done Rome since it started , I have been doing Toronto for 4 years I have done Japan ,Korea & Hong Kong a few times and every now then I do Paris. Am sorry if this is Boring but I had to tell you so you know am not a plumber or work as something none related .

I will feel that this subject has many different points , I know I will come under fire for speaking out loud but it won't be the first time I have had to move house 4 times in 4 years because of the threats towards me for going up against fakers and helping out Aftal , police or the trading standards .

I will not talk about the jackos it is not my field I don't claim to be an expert on this matter .

But I will talk about Gary King and Aftal only .

First Aftal I was asked to join 3 years ago so I could provide help when needed and also to strengthen the team since I am In Person but also since my views on fakers are zero tolerance , If fakers were a race I would be the biggest racist as I hate them with pasion .
I joined them because I was told they would serve the public that they would provide help to the blind and when ever needed they would support me if I found fakers dealers on the UK market .
Believe me or not I have been supported on 2 separate times and the person I called was Gary King to come and help me throw out from a convention in the UK this dodgy big time dealer no one else cared he got in his car and came as a uacc and Aftal board member when I asked the organisers to throw out this big dealer.

Anyway over the years Gary has been on TV just Like I have helping and exposing bad people who are ripping of the poor souls that don't know the difference between real and fake .
I have had my tires of my car slashed 2 times , sugar poor in one petrol tank and one car burned completely I get threatened very often that a baseball bat will meet me and my family at the door of our house . Yes this is true fakers don't play nice some just say it but there are some that actually bite .

I offer a COA with exact photo of each item
On it I offer time and place and also photos of me at the events or videos when I have it as it's not always possible , am not James bond just a graffer.

I have known Gary now for a few years and he is one of the good guys he will never ever forge and he will never sell a fake known that it was . Now he can get screwed just like many do by trusting someone this is
Common since he buys his stock but you can't blame him for this even the best can get mugged in this game the fakers are getting better as they have all the time in the world to practice .

Now if you ask me will the world be better without A Gary King or Aftal then the answer is NO .
I have never ever been to Gary s house and I have only ever had 1 drink with him in 2010 at the awards that's it he is not my best friend BUT I know he wastes a lot of his life going against fakers .

Aftal offer backing to punters and they have in the past when
Someone has been sold a fake they forced the dealer to refund the item and then tried to investigate the source .

I strongly feel Gary is good for the industry as there are not many of us that will sign our name
For ever under a post and be expected to take the heat .

Aftal might not be perfect yet but hopefully they will get there , I don't like their statement but am not a board member if it was up to me I would have done what you asked for show the proof so then we can move on .

Anyway I just wanted to come on hear and have an adult conversation and tell you what I think of all this .
I am not taking sides I am just commenting on what I do know .

All the best Jason Thanos

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