Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 28, 2017 at 7:18am

More authentic examples attached. Please pull up all 6 images on your local computer for comparison of the points mentioned.

Attachments: No photo uploads here

• authentic004.jpg, 78 KB
• authentic005.jpg, 118 KB
• authentic002.jpg, 94 KB

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on August 28, 2017 at 7:46am

Steffman - I do appreciate you scrutinizing these and looking beyond the sticker. I place very little weight on these TPAs like yourself. But I do not see a ton problems with each of the four from the seller that are in the 'under review' picture. Yes, I agree that the formation of the last name of 2/4 if VERY atypical - I've never seen it either. However, each of these albums each have traits I look for in Waters that forgers are never able to accomplish in unison. Each one has correct formation of the o-g transition, correct R & W formations including tails, and proper finish on the last name. Forgers can't get any of these traits down together (may change now since we are talking about his signature so frequently).

Here's one of my pieces I personally obtained in Chicago. Funky formation, especially how the 'o' sits - but its 100% authentic. Roger changes the way he signs frequently, but there's constant traits he has in in each signature I look for to determine proper authenticity.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 28, 2017 at 8:56am

Yours looks perfectly fine to me. The R bottom is nice and tall and the o sits in the correct place. The "g" bottom is also tall. The first bump in the W is nice and tight. The "aters" is common looking. It's perfectly good aside from the g top is often smaller.

The tail on the first W top tends to be very slight often to the point of being close to non-existent, but as you can see in 4/4 under review the first tail is very clearly evident, more evident than in the large majority of my large sample pool. For the first tail to be this evident in 4/4 samples is extremely unlikely. I noticed this, but left it off my list.

Luckily this source produced 3 other samples for a better look at "consistent inconsistencies."

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on August 28, 2017 at 1:08pm

I'm sorry, but IMO, there is no way that these are forgeries. Consistently inconsistent, perhaps. However, you have to think that these were most likely signed back to back to back to back on the current tour given its the same seller. There's too much correct with each of the four to call these fake. It would have to be the most talented person in the world to get his small intricacies I always look for correct.

Its just not possible in my eyes. We may have to agree to disagree on these. BAS got it right in my opinion. Roger signed in different rushed styles based on location during this tour. I can post some pictures of all the different styles from just what has been shared on AML. I can also go into more detail later. But the 4/5 key characteristics I look for are there for 4/4 in these.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 28, 2017 at 2:22pm

Thanks. Happy to see what you come up with later. The private sample database I referenced for this study contains many hundreds of Waters obtained in many different circumstances both through this current tour and previously for the last two decades in person, ranging from rushed through relaxed. Therefore, I stand by every point listed on the 4 albums "under review."

If you are able to provide authentic samples containing any (and especially all) of the points I made on them, especially 4 in a row, I'm happy to consider them. (However, you may want to do some studies on the other items this same seller has listed before bothering.)

To address your counter-point about consistent inconsistencies, please note that many of the samples I provided (and referenced locally) were obtained in a row and no other lot obtained in a row contained such consistency amongst their inconsistencies.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 28, 2017 at 5:55pm

What are your thoughts on the 2 attached Seamus? Would you say real, or talented person?

Attachments: No photo uploads here

• Screen Shot 2017-08-28 at 8.53.42 PM.jpg, 92 KB
• Screen Shot 2017-08-28 at 8.53.33 PM.jpg, 133 KB

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on August 28, 2017 at 5:57pm

Neither lol. Obvious fakes

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 28, 2017 at 6:13pm

But convincing enough to pass and a good example of someone's ability to replicate a hand movement with incredible precision.

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on August 28, 2017 at 6:21pm

This is not how Roger signs at all. Its a good attempt and obviously got by a TPA, but it lacks any type of natural flow. Easiest to just look at the R & W to see that.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 28, 2017 at 6:28pm

Right. But you can share these with most people who are generally familiar with Waters' graph and they would likely give a thumbs up, unless they saw both.

What are your thoughts on a TPA passing these?

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on August 28, 2017 at 6:34pm

You can probably say that for a lot of forgeries out there. There are forgers who can get basic formation down that would pass most, but will show obvious signs for the people who do their homework.

My thoughts? My guess that it probably got passed from a big player in the market who does a lot of business with TPAs. 

Permalink Reply by Ian Baldock on August 28, 2017 at 3:18pm

I see the hesitation on the right side of the W. It doesn't look that bad to me. He has been signing like crazy with long lines to get out of the way. If it was forged I'm surprised they would use the rushed R instead of the regular R that is more typical. 

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