Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on October 16, 2012 at 9:00pm

Kayleen,

Im afraid you just dont understand how good authenticators authenticate items. But rest assured this is what they do for a living, and the good ones out their such as Roger, have the reputation they do for a reason. And the guitars you mentioned look nothing alike as far as authenticity. you seem to be stuck in the same old argument everyone has heard a million times before, "if its not signed in front of you how do you know if its genuine". Well why thats true, if thats something you cant get around this hobby probably isnt for you

I tried to explain to you in another thread you posted on, how authenticators work and why you can tell a bad item from a good, even with sloppy signatures. And Steve K , below,, says basically the exact same thing.

I think your question now has been answered by at least 3 or 4 people including Roger.

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Permalink Reply by Steve on October 16, 2012 at 8:48pm

Kayleen,

The signatures you are showing on the guitars are not similar in any way to those on Roger's guitar.  The M in Mick is never signed that way by Jagger.  Even on Roger's guitar, you can see similarities in how Jagger signs.  A rushed signature, even in the most unpredictable of situations, still shows their personal signing traits.  Your signatures, signed nicely, have none of the traits.  

As Roger said, you don't have to believe him, go ahead and spend your money.  It's no skin of his nose, or any of ours for that matter.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on October 16, 2012 at 11:58pm

Again Kayleen,

Their is no point in knowing a story on an autograph to begin with. Every dealer or collector will be the first to tell you that they hear stories all the time that seem to line up perfect and that sound great, but are total b.s. Or they were lied to by the person who sold it to them. Right now with the help of wiki, i can come up with a terrific story of how i got a set of beatles signatures, and then all i have to do is go to coaches corner and buy a forgery. Then i have a great story to go along with it. You see, it takes little talent to make up a convincing story and authenticators here it all the time. So they train themselves too not pay attention to the story so much. Often the story is worth more than the forgery. Any good authenticator will tell you that the signature does the talking, not the story.

You keep talking of this Stones guitar of Rogers which is totally legit. You question the story about the guitar being signed through the window. Well fair enough, who cares, it may not have been, it may have been singed while he stood on his head in central park. It doesnt make a difference. What matters is that the guitar and the signatures on it matched up to known authentic examples. Authenticators have databases full of probably hundreds of examples of stones autographs, as well as forgeries. If the signatures fit the characteristics of an authentic signature, then a judgment is made. But rest assured a good authenticator will make sure they have stuided the signatures to the best of their ability. Some authenticators, and i believe Roger does this some of the time, will not cert very questionable items b/c it can lead to trouble in the end with the owner not being completely convinced, even though the sig is legit. But that wasnt the case here. This wasnt a very questionable signature, it fits the mold of legit Jaggers and all the other stones. Ive seen mick sign his first name only on several occassions and they all look like this.

The point im getting at, is that the story should be something that can add provenance to an item, but only after an authentication is made based on the signature alone. A good example is that i have heard of major celebrities who have pictures pre signed with them and hand them out to fans. Only problem is that a secretary signed those pics. And you may have received it directly from the celebs hand, but again, that doesnt mean its real. The signature is always what does the talking. The story is secondary at best.

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on October 17, 2012 at 4:01am

Bravo Carl, well said!

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Permalink Reply by Kayleen E on October 17, 2012 at 4:15am

Carl,

You seem to know a lot about authentication procedures for somebody who just collects for fun from your profile.

You sure you are not being coached ?????????????

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on October 17, 2012 at 6:02am

Carl, you read my mind.  this seems like a set up.

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Permalink Reply by Kayleen E on October 17, 2012 at 5:40am

No not being coached and I haven't been callings Rogers Items out his was just the example people were discussing.

Just interested in how people know how things are legit.

(I suppose you hang around ANL alot, ) May I ask what ANL stands for?

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on October 17, 2012 at 7:17am

Guys, just ignore this person.  Let it go.  BTW though for one last insight, the Ron Wood on this guitar does get a bit pointed around the end of his signature but thats because he is againt the bridge of the guitar.  The pen actually hits it and goes downward.  Thats it for me.

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Permalink Reply by Kayleen E on October 17, 2012 at 3:34pm

You contradict your self Roger this is what you stated on page one of this convo ( the only sloppy signature on the guitar is the Jagger, the rest are spot on.)

Now you are saying Ron's is a bit out too but you have an answer for that one too

Not once have I said your guitar is fake .

But now you tell people to ignore me how professional are you?

Roger you say you are a professional man then in my opinion  you should not be selling this guitar as it has too many flaws.

I was recommended by people for this site and now witnessing this I have came to an conclusion this is only for people who bow down to you.If you have a different opinion to others you get jumped on.

You can keep bitching if you want to but you no I am right!

You always have an answer for everything.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on October 17, 2012 at 3:44pm

Everything you've said doesnt make the FACT , that the original guitars pictured are forgeries. All it says is that you have some kinda of infatuation for Roger .

Roger has and knows the history behind the guitar he is selling . Why should he not sell it ?

 

 

I was recommended by people for this site and now witnessing this I have came to an conclusion this is only for people who bow down to you.If you have a different opinion to others you get jumped on.

This sounds so familar . Are you sure you havent been on this blog before. It sounds like the same song and dance some others who were on here gave.

Why dont you start your own blog . Its easy to do , you can have complete control and Bash Roger all you want .

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on October 17, 2012 at 4:15pm

I think your spot on Anthony, this sounds very familiar. I think were dealing with someone from the ANL community come here to play.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on October 17, 2012 at 5:21pm

Kaleen,

The problem may be that forgeries are so rampant in Australia, there's a good chance you haven't seen much in the way of genuine music autographs, besides the really common material. A lot of Australian collectors have no idea what genuine autographs of band members of the Stones, AC/DC, Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin look like.

If you go to sellers like www.Graysonline.com you'll have a hard time finding a genuine music autograph of any value. Trademe.com, eBay Australia...the list goes on and on.

And then there are the autograph stores owned or supplied by the likes of Richard Commisso and Chris Lancaster, like Music Legends and Cool World Collectibles. You'd have a hard time finding one genuine autograph on their websites.

If you take the time study genuine and forged music autographs, I think you'll get a good grasp of the differences between good and bad. And you might just end up agreeing with many of the members here.

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