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Authenticity is Everything
The Great American Blues Players Signature Study: Please Add Your Examples
Hello everyone,
I have been wanting to start a thread on this for a long time, and i figure now is as good of a time as any. I collect primary guitar players, and have been selling alot of them off recently, but one thing i continue to collect are the great old blues guitar players. Their is something about the Delta Blues traveling lifestyle that holds alot of wonder for me. These guys laid the foundation of modern music and they inspired many, if not most, of the musicians working today. Most think of Robert Johnson when they think of the great Blues players, but their are so so many others that deserve mention and tons of respect.
As anyone who has ever studied early blues signatures knows, they are incredibly difficult to authenticate or even find at times. You have guys like Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy, BB King just to name a few whose signature examples can readily be found. But aside from a few key players, autographs from these guys are very hard to find. And when you find one, often you really have to trust your source or do some serious research. And even then you often cant find examples.
So i thought this would be a good thread that may help future collectors out with examples we think are authentic. Please post examples of blues signatures that you like and want to share. Guys like Buddy Guy and BB King probably dont need to be posted in mass b/c their signatures are so abundant, but dont hesitate if you would like to post some.
I hope this can turn into a good database, and really the only one of its kind on the net. I have many examples from many different sources and if someone doesnt want their picture posted just leave a comment and i will delete it.
I am going to start this off with Albert King. You can find Albert King signatures from time to time, and of the 3 King's, he is the next most available after BB. Alberts signatures are typically sloppy, shaky, and can take on a few forms. Albert often write "Love You" before his signature, and his typical signature takes the form of A. King. I have also seen variations including "A.B. King". King often would not write out King fully and the formation would flow from the K almost into the g. I have seen my fair share of forgeries with Albert, but his signature can be authenticated in most instances in my opinion. Here are some examples with sources:
This is one album i used to own and recently sold on RR Auction. It came from "Mr. Bebop", of Larrys Books and Autographs. He specializes in blues signatures and this was a great example of king.
These next images came from RR Auction
The Ace of Spades album is a nice example, and the rarer A.B. King signature. The middle cut display is more atypical. This one in my eyes can go either way but is probably good. The A looks typical but the King is a little more unusual. But he did do this from time to time in his shorter signature versions. The bottom example is a typical King signature.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
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Hi guys, right now is a great time to pick up a Little Milton signature. I searched for around a year one time for one and couldnt find anything for under 75 dollars, now you can buy several off ebay for around 40 bucks. If you want one, now is the time to strike. Here are some authentic examples in my opinion.
This is from ebay as well:
Im pretty sure this is from ebay:
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The last one for tonight i thought should be Mr. Frank Seals, better known as Son Seals. Obviously, "Son", was a very popular nickname of the day, as you see it time and time again with guys like Son House and James Son Thomas. Seals was an amazing guitar player and frequently performed with his brother in law Little Walter. Seals influenced a host of musicians and had his own unique style of guitar playing, and even dabble in country western. Seals lived into the mid 2000s and died fairly early in his 60s. Its very sad that most of the old blues titans have now passed away.
Seals was another one of those old bluesmen who were involved in gunplay. Alot of the bluemen have records of either being shot, or shooting someone. Times were different though, and tempers short in their day i suppose. Seals was shot in the face by his wife, and required plastic surgery to help fix. But that wasnt the start of Son's trouble. He had half his leg amputated, lost most of his possessions to a house fire, and also had some very valuable and important guitars stolen. He had alot of setbacks, but such is the legend of Son Seals. Seals was a good signer and his signatures can readily be found most any month on ebay. Prices range from around 30 dollars for a cut to 50 dollars for a picture. Although prices can go to either extreme. He had a fairly distinctive writing style and once you see some, you can pick the good from the bad fairly easy.
Here are some examples i think are authentic
This one is from ebay
This one is from ebay, and i am less sure on it. It has some positives and probably is good, but one unusual thing, is that Seals typically had a specific way he wrote his 2 capital S's. The first swoop on the S would tend to always be longer, wider, and more pronounced than the bottom swoop. Most Seals signatures show this characteristic, but this one doesnt show it like most others. I am less sure on it, but thought i would include it none the less.
Here is one from ebay i think is good
Here is one from google that i think has a good shot
Here is one from google
Here is one from google that i am less sure on, but probably good
Here is one that i own purchased from ebay.
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Permalink Reply by Celia Kelly on
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Hello, New here. In reading the postings I see that a Luther Tucker signature is considered rare. Probably so. Here is his signature and phone number written on a poster for one of his gigs towards the end of his life in Marin County, Ca. He wrote it down for his friend Francis Clay. I received this from Francis not because of Luther's signature but for what is on the backside of it. If Francis would have known it was worth a few bucks he would have sold it.
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He Celia,
Sorry for the delay, i havent really checked up thoroughly on the thread in a while, although i plan to add much more to it soon. Wow, thats a gorgeous Luther Tucker, and a one of a kind item at that. Just a beautiful piece, and for a blues collector, especially the right one, it could be quite valuable. A beautiful item, and if i didnt already have 2, id make you an offer. But if you do decide to sell, hold out for the right price. At bare min, its worth more than 50 bucks. As for true worth, i cant really tell. It all depends on the collector.
Me myself, if i didnt have one, i would have paid between 75 and 100 for such a great piece. I have an emphasis on collecting blues guitar players, so it appeals greatly to me, and there are others out there who are after these guys just like i am. So to the right guy, whos been searching for Tucker for a while, it would be quite valuable in my opinion.
A beautiful piece! Thanks for sharing it
Carl
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This is a great thread! Thanks for starting it. I have really enjoyed reading through it.
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Hi Guys,
I thought tonight i would add some examples from one of my favorite Chicago Blues guitarists, Jimmy Rogers. Jimmy was born James Lane, but ultimately took his stepfathers last name of Rogers when he turned professional. Rogers, in my opinion, was a true powerhouse, both on the harmonica and on the guitar. Rogers helped define the Muddy Waters band sound. Rogers, along with most blues musicians of the time, led a story book lifestyle, playing with one legend after another, but Rogers was most famous for his role in the Muddy Waters band.
Rogers played with a who's who of giants including Howlin Wolf, Muddy Waters, Snooky Pryor, just to name a few. And it was Snooky who taught Rogers alot of what he knew on the harmonica (I will cover Snooky soon).
Unfortunately, Rogers's life held just as much disaster as it did fortune. Rogers never really did get the fame he deserved in my opinion. His works were often ignored, and in numerous instances UNCREDITED!! Sometimes someone would get credited that really had nothing to do with the recording, but for whatever reason, the error was never corrected. Rogers did enjoy some fame as a solo musician, but his fame chiefly came from his regular position in the Muddy Waters band. But Rogers was also a bit of an entrepreneur, and actually opened up a clothing line at one time. Unfortunately, when Martin Luther King Jr. died, the riots that insued, burned his business to the ground. A true shame, and an unbelievable talent.
Now on to the autographs. Rogers autographs are really not all that uncommon. He lived into the late 90's and signed freely. But blues collectors love him, and they hold onto his autographs pretty tight. Typical a half a dozen or so (sometimes more) show up on ebay a year. Rogers chiefly signed only his first initial and Rogers. Most signatures you will see form him are simply a shaky J. Rogers. Like many older blues giants, Rogers had poor shaky handwriting, which can make authentication sometimes difficult. I would personally put the value of a typical Rogers item at about 40 to 45 dollars, and that would be for a signed CD sleeve. For a signed LP, i would consider around 50 to 60 to be fair. Rogers was a blues giant, and if you can add him to your collection, it would be a great addition. Here are some examples:
Here is a very rare example of Jimmy signing his full name from RR auction:
Here is a signed CD brochure from my own collection:
This one also came from ebay and is also signed by Calvin Jones
This one came from ebay as well
This one came from ebay and is still for sale at around 75 dollars. A little pricey in my opinion
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Hi Guys,
Next i thought we could look at Snooky Pryor, born James Pryor. Pryor is one of the central and most influential characters in all of the blues world. If you talk to any blues harmonica player, Pryor will almost surely come up. He was a huge influence in the world of Chicago blues, and Pryor helped to define that sound.
Pryor had a very distinctive harmonica tone, with odd verses combined with a great sense of beat. One of Pryors trademark sounds, was to hold up a small microphone in his cupped hand while he played. Pryor got this idea from his army days, and claimed to be the first to employ it. Pryor truly was one of the all time greats on the harmonica, but from what i have been told was not an especially nice fellow.
Pryor came from a different time when racial tensions were still high, and as some other blues musicians, wasnt necessarily the fondest of white fans. I have heard this story from several individuals, including the blues promoter who i bought my Homesick James signed CD from. He was directly responsible for bringing Pryor to his own clubs, and Pryor still refused to ever give him an autograph. And he said he asked many times, and even had his good friend Robert Jr. Lockwood to ask Pryor for him, who still refused. Homesick James refused to sign as well, but after RJL asked him, Homesick signed.
As far as autographs go, Snooky is fairly rare in my experience. His autographs do come up maybe a half dozen or so times a year on ebay, but typically run fairly high. This is fairly suprising considering that Pryor lived until 2007 and did sign. But for whatever reason, probably demand, his signatures arent cheap. Most of the time when you see them offered they go for between 50 and 75 dollars. And thats quite high considering how late he lived in life. I have also found that there are alot of Snooky forgeries out there. I cant understand why, but forgers do seem to favor him. Snooky's signatures are fairly neat, and largely share the same characteristics. Here are some examples i feel are authentic.
Here is one from ebay i believe. This one i am on the fence with, but believe its probably good.
Here is another from ebay i believe:
Here is one i believe from ebay
Here is an example from RR auction:
Here is one from RR auction:
Here is a signed Living Blues mag from my collection i purchased off ebay
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Permalink Reply by Nate on
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Hi Carl,
Have been looking into Snooky Pryor autographs a bit because he is one of those guys whos signature seems to change depending on what day of the week it is! I am lucky to own a few Snooky Pryor autos which I believe are genuine (coming from the same source as many rock solid blues graphs). Looking at these and your examples above (plus others on the web), which are fairly certain to be genuine, he appears to quite freely change from upper to lower case. I don't believe the age of the autograph matters too much in this (it may a little as older graphs seem to be mainly in lower case, but I have seen a mixture). These differences would quite rightly lead to thoughts that a number of ones out there are fakes, but I am of the opinion (and I have been wrong before so please only see this as my take on it) that many thought as fake are in fact genuine. Below I have some examples of what I mean (I believe all the examples below are correct):
3 of those examples above were from the same collector who, as far as I am aware, obtained them all in person. The other example is from RR auctions. Only the letter 'n' appears to be consistantly in lower case, all the other letters vary.
Anyway, as said, these are just my opinions on his autograph.
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Hi Nate,
First, thank you so much for your post. The blues and autograph world needs a place where they can go to not only see some great signed blues pieces, but also to be able to study the autographs of these great players. Im sure you know just how difficult it is to find authentic examples of the old blues players. It definetly is one of the harder genres to collect.
i LOVE all the items you posted. Those are amazing pieces. That Son House LP is just beyond amazing. That is as nice a piece from House as anyone will ever see. A beautiful signed LP, signed boldly and in great condition. Items like that are just insanely rare. And in my opinion, it is definetly authentic. It matches every characteristic that i have seen in authentic Son signatures. Basically a textbook example of Son's signature. Its crazy the deals that you can get sometimes. That LP realistically is probably worth between 4 and 6 hundred dollars. Possibly more, and i would imagine it could be narrowed down even further to between 5 and 6 hundred. There are so many gems out there hiding in someones basement, that i live for. Some people just dont know what they have. I purchased a Mint, bold, big, textbook perfect signed LP by Wes Montgomery off ebay for 200 BIN. Absolutely insane. I have only seen maybe 7 legit Wes signed pieces, and only 1 signed LP, and it wasnt even close to the condition of mine. Realistically the value is probably at least 1200 dollars. Its just crazy what deals you can find in the blues world. My experience is that either you encounter a collector who collects blues autographs and knows there worth (and therefore you probably arent gonna get any steals, lol) and often asks a little to alot more than they are worth, or the polar opposite, and they are selling them for a fraction of there potential value. You really have to do your homework to know these guys and there value.
That Big Bill program is also AMAZING!!! What a gorgeous piece, and a beautiful textbook signature as well. I am looking for a big bill sig, but ive got to do some saving first. I will eventually get one though. But thats a unique item. I see alot of signed cuts and the occasional book, but rarely a program like that. Just beautiful.
I also dig that Honeyboy piece.
But thank you so much for posting these and please post more. Together we can create an invaluable tool for those looking to purchase blues graphs.
I have alot more guys to post when i get some time, but feel free to start any new person you wish, and i will add to it if i have any knowledge.
Thanks again
Carl
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Hello guys,
Before i forget, Andy brought something to my attention that i think should be shared for future reference. The following was sold at RR auction:
It is an extraordinary piece, and has some extremely rare names. And the authenticity, in my opinion, is not in question at all, but i do think that there is an error in the listing. The listing states that one of the signers is Robert Pete Williams. However, i don think that this is accurate. The signature in question is between Big Bill Broonzy and B.B. King. Now, on outward appearance it certainly looks like the signer signed Robert Williams, and i actually think he did. But i dont think its Robert Pete Williams. I actually think the autograph is from a musician named Jesse Williams. I really cant find much on Jesse Williams, so its possible that "Jesse" is just a nickname and that his real name was Robert. I have seen a handful of these autographs pop up from the 60s timeline.
Now granted, i havent seen many Robert Pete Williams signatures, but the ones i have seen look basically like this:
Ok,
Now here is an example of the signature of Jesse Williams:
I am pretty sure that Jesse Williams actually signed that card by BB King and Big Bill and not Robert Pete Williams. The signatures compare well and i have a few other Jesse Williams sigs to add shortly. But they all compare well. I could be wrong, but i think this is whats going on.
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