The alarming and growing trend of high priced third-party authenticators

Hello to all. I am a long time collector of rock autographs (started in 1988) but am new to this forum stuff. Anyway, I spent a hour or so today reading a thread on here regarding fakes and who sells forgeries and who doesn't, etc. and I found it very disconcerting. I have purchased autographs in the past 25 years from many dealers including Tom Platt, R & R, Blake Levine, Joe Long, Roger Epperson, Myron Ross and others. I don't claim to be an expert but after 25 years or research, collecting and study, I do think my own knowledge and opinion of what I collect is pretty solid. What concerns me is that the blog implies that unless the autograph has been given a 'blessing' by Mr. Epperson or PSA, it's highly unlikely that it's real. Really?? Well, in a phone conversation a few years ago, Mr Epperson told me that he has never once seen a real Prince autograph. Yet, if you look up the sold history on R&R's website, you will see that they have sold Prince items. Does that mean that R&R sold forgeries?? This is just one example. Almost ever dealer I've bought from, with the sole exception of Mr. Epperson, was referred to in this blog as a crook or worse.

I do know this: these self-appointed third party authenticators are now controlling the hobby and must be raking in money faster than they can count it. Think about it...

What are your thoughts on this??

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Comment by Carl Ryan on July 17, 2013 at 8:28pm: Bob,

My thoughts on this is that you either misunderstood Roger Epperson, or the information you got was not to be taken in the sense that it was. I have a unbelievably hard time believing that Roger Epperson told you that he had never seen a legit Prince piece. He authenticates Prince, the same as he does any other, and he has exposed numerous Prince forgeries on this site. I have an extensive Prince library and have shown them to Roger and he had just about every one. So if this conversation took place say in the last 15 years, then you either misunderstood what he was saying, or this is just another attempt to take a dig at Roger Epperson. And i sincerely hope that you are not here to do that. But if Roger told you a few years ago he had never seen a legit Prince autograph, then their is no way he would be in business now. Im sorry but i just dont believe that he said that. Its true that Prince doesnt sign at all anymore for the public and he may have made a comment about that and you got it confused, but i dont believe he said he had never seen a Prince autograph before that was legit. Everyone has, its one step away in a google search.

Roger is thought of very highly here, along with PSA and JSA. The reason for that, in my opinion, is that these companies have a higher batting average than really all the others combined. Their really is no comparison as far as a wide variety of genres. They get it wrong, but the number of errors is so small compared to the other TPAs that their really is no comparison.

And b/c they are good, and b/c they have established a rep, and items sell better with their authentications, they are raking in the money. No doubt about that. But its the forgers out their who helped push it to this point. That and the incompetent TPAs, FDEs, and self appointed master authenticators. Their are so many forgeries out their, that folks want a legit graph if they are buying, and the best odds of getting that, as far as all genres are concerned, is PSA or JSA. Unless you can find a specialty guy with a good rep like Roger.

I stick up for Roger b/c of his authentications, but i have disagreed with him on several occasions. And i have seen mistakes from him just like any other. But 99.8 percent of the time, or better, Roger is correct. And his rep is based off that. And professional collectors have come to know that, and if you have purchased from Roger, then you already know that. I have been a member at numerous autograph sites as my experience level grew, including startiger, yahoo, and fanmail. And if anyone else has been, they know that while these sites may have a couple experienced collectors, the vast majority are inexperienced and stil think their Deniro graphs TTM are real. The most PSA and JSA trashing that i have ever seen goes on at these sites, b/c the members are inexperienced, and are either mad at these companies for hurting their ebay sales, or are mad b/c their items have come back not authentic. So they start searching the web for others to validate this. And they inevitably come across Autograph News Live, Autograph Alert, and Ripoffreport. And they read some things and think that they know the truth.

But as any experienced collector will know, probably yourself included, these sites are the autograph slander sites of the industry. They are run by a group of around 12 or less individuals, who post under many different aliases, and have formed a tight knit community where they can assume command of sites such as coaches corner. They take a dig at PSA, JSA, Roger, and anyone else who exposes forgeries sold by their members. If you study their posts you find that all of them are either made up, using partial quotes, cutting and pasting where they want to make it sound like someone was saying something they werent, are personal insults that dont deal with autographs, or something of that sort. they never turn out to be true if you look into them, but their are some inexperienced collectors who believe it/

And we all know the story of who was making those ripoff reports, especially with Epperson, as he sued the guy who admitted he was posting under many different names solely to get back at Roger/

If TPAs start authenticating mass forgeries or start getting it wrong more than right by even a decent percentage, then they deserve to get the criticism that will come. But right now, thats not the case. And plenty of errors from PSA, JSA, and some from Roger get posted on this site regularly (psa and jsa anyway). Everyone knows they can do plenty wrong, but they are thought well of, at least in my opinion, b/c of what they have done for the industry. When i look at the other authentication companies out their, i cant even come close to saying the same.

But that statement about Prince was either a misscommunication or false. And i dont normally call people liars, so i will assume it was a misunderstanding, but i dont think anyone will believe that Roger told you he never has seen an authentic Prince a few years ago. But you can prove me wrong. Roger is a member here, so just post a comment on his wall and ask him to confirm that statement form a few years ago, and i will gladly apologize. But i am assuming that it was a misunderstanding.

Comment by Bob Salvati on July 17, 2013 at 9:19pm: Hey Carl, thank you for your post. Please don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against Roger. Quite the opposite, I have nothing but respect for him. What I said about the Prince conversation is 100% true. I called Roger about a Prince signature I was contemplating buying. The rest is what I said. No misunderstanding. Roger told me that he had never seen an authentic Prince. This was about 2005 and he said this without having a look at the item. I have no reason to make this up and nothing to gain by it. Had he answered differently, I may have purchased that Prince item.

My point is that this blog would have you, me and everyone else believing is that unless your item has been blessed by Roger or PSA - it's not not likely to be real. That thinking is in the best interest of the third party authenticators. That is what I have a problem with. Should I throw out everything I have that hasn't been blessed by Roger or PSA? If not, my only other option is to pay them??? This is the issue I'm speaking to.

Comment by Rick Meyer on July 17, 2013 at 10:14pm: Bob,

I agree with much of what you said about 3rd party authentications. On music or entertainment I think they are useless outside of Roger. I look at some of the PSA music authentications and just shake my head. Some believe them to be golden and will proudly hang a forgery if it has the PSA sticker on it. On music and entertainment I really just rely on my own opinion about the signature. Example go look at how many 3rd party authentications on EBAY for say...Scarlett Johansson. Last time I counted there were 24 third party authenticated Johansson sigs. One guy has like 8 of them but uses the same picture for all 8. I got her a couple times and no chance did she sign more then 1 for anybody any of the times I have seen her sign and even those days were rare. Out of those 24 I would say between 3-5 are good. Most are so bad I can't believe some of these agencies claim they have exemplars that match them. Same goes for some music autographs. I don't believe they are any better

On the other hand I personally value Roger's opinion on music items. I would find it amazing that he had never seen an authentic Prince signature. I would bet he has. One reason I trust him is more his honesty. Unlike many I never ask him for free opinions on here. I always pay the fee and send it to him. On more then one occasion I've had him return my money and tell me he is unfamiliar with a particular artist. One off the top of my head was Alicia Keys. He told me he is not familiar with her signature and returned my money. He could have kept my money and guessed but he didn't. I have never seen PSA or JSA do this. They keep your money and just say no or they will guess. I am not familiar with how GA handles those issues.

Comment by Jerome Turner on July 17, 2013 at 11:04pm: Third party authenticators are nothing but businesses/business people taking advantage of inexperienced and uneducated collectors who believe "if it has a sticker on it its real". All that sticker means is that someone else who is trusted as an "expert" thinks it looks real. It doesn't mean it is though.

Comment by Josh Board on July 19, 2013 at 1:14am: Bob brings up a great point. I remember cracking up when R&R told me, that Roger had never seen a real Jim Morrison signature on an album (until the one R&R was selling). I'm guessing that could be true, but I've seen two -- and I'm not a dealer! So, I can understand why a comment like that would sound odd, but I think Roger does that to drive home the point -- lots and lots and lots are out there, and he hasn't seen one that's real (or only one, etc). Perhaps an exaggeration, but...I will say, some of the people you mentioned -- have sold me bogus signatures. Don't want to get into it now, but you can go back and find the threads somewhere.

Comment by John McGinnis on July 19, 2013 at 1:23am: Why is it so far fetched that he had not seen an authentic Prince 15 years ago? Unless you were lucky enough to get him when he was actually signing in the 80's nobody would have seen one and then if you had seen one, you would have to be taking someone elses word for it that it was real. Prince is such a rare signature that that does not surprise me one iota. The contracts that are signed by him just came on the market a few years ago.

Comment by John McGinnis on July 19, 2013 at 1:26am: You're right Jerome and it also doesn't mean it isn't real if they say it isn't WITHIN REASON..are you listening Ceasar's Palace?

Comment by Carl Ryan on July 19, 2013 at 8:47am: It is so far fetched John, b/c Prince 15 years ago was a reliable signer. Not only that but authentic Prince examples, are, and have been widely available. They are very easy to obtain as exemplars. Finding an authentic one to buy is another story though. I have seen Roger authenticate and expose many Prince forgeries, and they were even easier to expose 15 years ago. Their simply is no chance that Roger had never seen an authentic Prince example, while supposedly at the same time authenticating them for RR auction. Real prince autograph exemplars have always been fairly easy to obtain, and the contracts he signed dont really add anything either way. They are just better examples of his full name signature. Their are many many examples out their and always have been, and 20 years ago they were even more common. I do hope Roger comments, to clear this up, but i just dont believe it. Thats like Roger telling people he had never seen an authentic Jimmy Page autograph 20 years ago. B/c at that time Prince sigs were just as accessible as Page signatures.

Comment by Bob Salvati on July 19, 2013 at 9:45am: As the original poster of this blog, let me just say that what Roger told me may have been an exaggeration on his part or a miscommunication on mine. That being said, the point of the blog is that third party authentication has grown out of proportion. Many items do not need to be 'authenticated' by an 'expert'. First is was artists such as Beatles,Elvis and Morrison, etc, and then artists such as Springsteen, Madonna, Michael Jackson, U2, Bowie, Eagles, SRV, etc. Now, collectors are paying good money to authenticate artists such as Steve Miller, Jackson Browne and Edgar Winter!

Many artists and items do not need TPA. There are many authentic examples out there to use as exemplars. All people have to do is find them and use them. Again, I feel TPA has gone from a helpful thing to a out of control money making thing. Just my two cents..

Comment by Mike P on July 19, 2013 at 11:15am: I think Roger was using hyperbole as Josh believes. However, I do agree that the reliance on 3rd party authentication is way too much for the hobby.

I came across a Mantle signed baseball that was pristine with no authentication but was 100% real that sold for $300; a Mantle signed baseball in worse condition (had tons of stains on it) but had that good ol' PSA sticker on it sold for $550 and had more than five times the viewers than the non-TPA'd item did.

"Collectors" nowadays look for items with authentication so they don't have to do the dirty work that is learning signatures; which should be what makes the hobby fun and educational.