Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
****This topic (and the forum) are gaining media attention. Please see this article for more information:
https://radaronline.com/p/liza-minelli-autopen-signature-memoir-sca...
****ATTENTION: Steve Cyrkin, who manages this website, has asked for photos of your Liza signature.
You will need to take high-resolution images (3,000-4,000 pixels wide) of Liza's first name, last name, and smiley face SEPARATELY, as close up as can be, and saved as PNGs or the native file format (NOT JPEG).
Please take individual pictures that isolate each segment as best as possible.
Send to: editor@autographmagazine.com.
****Photos must be submitted per these guidelines****
Separately, feel free to also post your photos on the forum below for others to see.
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WELCOME TO THE DISCUSSION
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“Start Spreading the News”
- Collectors have identified repeatable signature patterns across multiple copies of Liza Minnelli’s signed memoir.
- Overlay analysis reveals identical geometry and spacing in specific segments, an outcome not consistent with natural handwriting.
- There’s a growing view on this forum that this reflects a repeatable mechanical process, potentially involving advanced autopen use built from older verified signatures.
Recent news coverage also raises questions about whether Liza would have been able to sign books in the consistently pristine manner seen here.
There has also been widespread speculation among Liza’s fans on social media that the audiobook may involve AI-assisted voice technology, with some questioning whether the audiobook voice is a true recording or an AI-generated version of her voice.
⚠️ Still frame from a video showing the overlay process between two signatures
Check out these videos showing the overlay testing process used to compare the signatures.
Note how “Liza” matches up
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps.
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Here is a visual walk-through of identifying matching segments in overlay. This reflects how the issue was initially discovered.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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One thing that’s also interesting: If you take the dust jacket off the book, Liza’s autograph is imprinted on the front hard cover underneath (appears to be only on US editions):
That signature matches a verified example that appears to date from at least the early 1990s:
What’s concerning is that some of the signature patterns inside the “signed” books seem very close to that same 90s example, which makes it look possible that the earlier verified signature may have been used as a template for the autopen signatures in the book:
(Book cover signature overlaid with a signature from inside book)
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***FURTHER OBSERVATIONS***
- Multiple members of this forum have observed indications that a modern, high-volume autopen system may be involved. One example is the UUNA TEK iAuto Premium, which demonstrates the level of precision and consistency seen with the Liza signatures. According to Steve Cyrkin, the founder of Autograph Live, the results appear consistent with this type of technology. A higher-volume model such as the Ultimate could also be capable, as the underlying signing mechanism appears similar, according to Steve.
- Additionally, members on the forum have observed evidence suggesting the use of multiple marker types: some signatures appear consistent with a standard medium-point Sharpie-style marker, while others show characteristics of a chisel-point tip. Variations in stroke width within a single line (such as tapered sections in circular elements like the face) support this, as pointed out by Steve Cyrkin.
- Demonstration videos of the UUNA TEK iAuto show that not only the pen moves, but the paper itself shifts in short, controlled motions during signing. As has been noted by members of the forum, this could help explain the consistent geometry and repeatable structure observed across multiple signatures.
Please see this video to learn more on how this technology works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
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You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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Thanks Steve, I appreciate the help you’ve offered and I’m grateful to have a forum to discuss our hobby.
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Permalink Reply by CharliesAngels
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Hello, kids! I am brand new to this site, but am excited to be here! Sadly, I was brought here because of this scandal right now. I have my book, are yall still wanting examples? It's the standard signed edition, purchased from Oblong Books. Contacted their support, and the owner responded back assuring me they were real and said "thanks for sending me down the rabbit hole."
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Welcome! Glad you signed up to join the discussion. Right, it’s too bad it’s under these circumstances.
Yes, I’m still working to gather up examples, so that’s great if you want to post. I’ll see what they may show. Lol about their response at Oblong, I feel bad for them.I’m still reading back through the thread from today and I know I missed some responses. Lol Jimmy James, THANK YOU….you rock man.
Going to get some rest but I’ll be around tomorrow. Keep the responses and examples coming.
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Hello, Matt! Thanks for your reply. In that case, here are the highest quality pics of mine I could get front and back.
- Attachments: No photo uploads here
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IMG_5732.jpg, 1.3 MB -
IMG_5733.jpg, 1.2 MB
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Got them, thanks! Those came through really well, and also appear to have aspects that look familiar. I’ll work with it tomorrow and see what may show up.You may also consider sending additional photos to the leader of this website, Steve Cyrkin, per the criteria at the top of this page. You’ll need to take photos of each of the segments as noted. Thanks again!
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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES
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Well we've got some large media sites chatting about the Liza Autopen debacle, and lots
of attention on Facebook, Reddit and Instagram.
So far though, the Book Publishers, Liza's team, and major media be like:
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Lol… yeah, still hopeful that some others we’ve contacted might pick up the story, but we’ll see.I’ve spent a couple hours today studying examples and testing overlays….definitely a bit tedious, but still finding things that seem unusual. I’ll share additional examples/overlays as I find ones that are particularly demonstrative.
Just wanted to thank everyone who’s contributed. Even if your example hasn’t been used yet publicly, I’ve studied it and it’s helped inform the process. Please feel free to keep them coming.
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I know this is a long post, but I wanted to put this here for anyone who may be following along regarding technical aspects of the signatures. I hope this might make sense to those of you who have looked at many of these. I’ve been looking at a lot today and been thinking about this.
We’ve learned that advanced autopen machines can introduce variations to a signature or template, but one thing I keep wondering is how many templates might actually be in play here.
We know Dylan had 17.
We know Liza has at least one from the early ’90s.
I’ve seen variations of that ’90s-style signature used inside the book…but we don’t know how many versions there are.
On top of that, it’s unclear how many other templates might exist…or how many variations were applied to those as well.
From what I’ve observed across the more common recognizable segments, there are slight variations that seem to have been introduced, likely by an advanced autopen process.
These tend to show up in consistent places:
• The size of the loops in the “L’s”
• The tails of the “L’s”
• The length of the line between the loops of the L‘s
Sometimes the bottom loop of the L in Liza has a straighter leading edge, while other times it’s more rounded. In some cases, the top loop of the L is open, but in some cases it is filled in… and occasionally there’s no clear loop at all (just a line where it looks like the loop wasn’t fully executed).
The size of the lower loop of the L’s can vary as well, with some appearing more slender and others more full.
The “Z’s” show similar behavior. A lot of them clearly overlap, but the bottom stroke can be slightly longer or shorter, and in some cases the angular turns are a bit sharper or softened.
There are also variations in the “iza” / “ove” segments. I’ve seen overlapping “ove” portions where the “e” is sometimes open and sometimes closed. Sometimes they have the tail at the bottom, sometimes they don’t.
The leading tail of the “o” can also point at slightly different angles, even in otherwise matching segments; similarly, the width of the V is sometimes slightly changed between otherwise matching segments.
As for the smileys….they’re often placed directly below the “Z” or slightly offset, touching the Z or very close. I’ve been able to get some of the smileys to overlay in weird ways, but I haven’t focused on them as much as the other portions.
The Liza segments are interesting to work with, since they are the largest. In segments that appear to show significant overlap, the “I’s” are often positioned very similarly, but the length can vary slightly, and the dots can be just a bit displaced.
The “A” in Liza also shows subtle variation across what look like matching segments. Similar to the “e,” sometimes the middle is open, and sometimes filled in. The legs or crossbar can be slightly longer or shorter, or angled a bit differently.
There are a very small handful of examples that have a weird feature I haven’t seen anywhere else.
For example, my own copy is the only one I’ve come across where the two dots for the smiley face eyes are actually connected. Instead of two separate dots, it it looks like the pen was dragged between them.
BallroomDays posted one the other day where the “A” in Liza looked off in a way I haven’t seen repeated.
Jimmy James has one where the tail on the L drifts slightly upward and trails off, in a way I haven’t seen before.I also shared an example from eBay with a weird “L”….the loop is lopsided. Again, the only one like it I’ve found so far.
And of course, the bookplates are a whole different situation and much harder to match consistently. I’d be curious to see some more of those.
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This goes nicely with what is posted above.(The origins of the signed bookcover copy are explained further down the thread).
I have highlighted the very slight differences between these otherwise very similar examples:
1. Shows a closed loop vs. an open loop on the book cover example.2. Shows a shorter line between the loops vs. the book cover example.
3. Shows a straighter/shorter edge vs. a more rounded edge/extended edge on the book cover example.
4. Shows a slightly more rounded edge vs. the slightly straighter edge on the book cover example.
5. Tail is closer to the loop vs. the book cover example.
6. Shows differences between the examples involving the loop of the “L” and the “I”
7. Angle is slightly different on the leading tail of the “A”.
8. Shows a closed loop vs. an open loop on the book cover example.
9. Possibly a slightly sharper angle on the book cover example.
10. The “A” in the book cover is missing one of its stems.
You can see the overlay of these two examples here:
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Permalink Reply by Lauren S
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Not the greatest photos, but here are a couple more from the LA event that I see for sale in Facebook Marketplace listings!
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Thanks Lauren, I appreciate your continued efforts!
I’m going to display one of the examples that you just provided:
Now, here is one of the bookplates that you previously provided from the LA event:
There’s some pretty close overlap going on involving the Z and the A. Not exact, but I’ll continue to work on it to see what else may lineup.(The top line of the Z in the first example has a slight downward leading edge. This is something I see a lot on the regular editions- the Z’s will overlap but one will have this slight difference).
I just thought I would share since the book plates have been a bit challenging:
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