Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 5, 2012 at 2:10am

What do you mean you use your real photo, Jason. You use Angelina Jolie's!

(BTW, who's that goofy guy with her?)

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on November 5, 2012 at 2:13am

My stunt double , Am like the President I have a double just to be safe !!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 5, 2012 at 2:17am

Damn...I wish I was rich and famous.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on November 5, 2012 at 2:20am

what you mean rich ? you must be talking about some one else then , I dont even own a house or have a morgage yet . Honest dont pay !! Have you not heard.

You got to f*** everyone over to make money is this world good guys just make friends :-)

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on November 5, 2012 at 3:32am

A superb and honest quote Jason!

I'm Glad that Ken admitted to paying more attention to this discussion. We knew he would be back. It is good to see one more person stand up against AFTAL. Even if done in a "kinda, Sorta" way.

Now, so many people keep defending Adrian as a dealer. Does this mean that none of his items were ever personally questioned? Also, since Adrian has enjoyed the backing of such "top name" dealers, how many truthful in-person vendors ( Like Jason and Gary) have been moved to the side, or simply DESTROYED just for offering material to the same people? Knowing human behavior, I'm quite sure the back stabbing game has been played a time or two in the past over this very subject.

Ken, how did so many fakes make it past so many "experts" and top dealers? The true in-person collectors had to know something was amiss when they saw Adrian's material compared to the items they were receiving in-person.

Also, I think you missed the main point. You say you didn't sell any of the Jackson autographs ( thus you owe not one customer a refund ). However, as you have admitted, you were in the process of offering a handful of them to a collector here. Was that because you ( either by way of the AFTAL statement, or your own accord ) didn't honor Roger's opinion or standing as a Music autograph expert?

Now that you have stepped away and looked at Adrian and his material from a new perspective, are there other items that seem "off" to you ( McCartney or others not mentioned yet )?

This information is important to U.S. collectors like myself who are willing to purchase Items from good UK dealers. Right now, the list of who to trust is short. Especially since nobody can trust a thing the AFTAL has done.

That's what this boils down to. Who can buyers trust? It's too bad that the AFTAL dropped the ball when it came to protecting the customer. They did a bang-up job when it came to protecting Adrian and certain dealers though.

When this is over, the UK will have two sides. The panty grabbers that let the AFTAL speak for them. And those that stood on their own (even against the AFTAL). I have a feeling that the customers will choose to buy from dealers who have a backbone, over a dealer with a fancy membership certificate.

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Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on November 5, 2012 at 4:08am

Now, so many people keep defending Adrian as a dealer. Does this mean that none of his items were ever personally questioned?

Certainly not in the early days because he was widely regarded as the Jason Thanos of his day and everyone saw him collecting all over the world.

Ken, how did so many fakes make it past so many "experts" and top dealers? The true in-person collectors had to know something was amiss when they saw Adrian's material compared to the items they were receiving in-person.

You tell me - as I said I was mostly a Sport collector towards the end so didn't have those comparisons.

 

 Was that because you ( either by way of the AFTAL statement, or your own accord ) didn't honor Roger's opinion or standing as a Music autograph expert?

I don't know Roger Epperson. I have known Adrian a long time plus also the members of the AFTAL Board who having viewed video evidence and presumably spoken to countless collectors who knew for certain he was in L.A. for about 3 months leading up to M.J's death had issued a statement saying they were in no doubt that the autographs were 100% authentic. What would you do ? To me at the time it was a ' no brainer '.

 

 It is good to see one more person stand up against AFTAL. Even if done in a "kinda, Sorta" way.

I ' kinda ' ' sorta ' ironically as it turns out received a renewal of AFTAL membership e-mail this morning would you believe. I have told them that due to their lack of personal support over the past 3 months I would find it inappropriate to renew my membership. So for the record - I ' walked ' - I wasn't ' pushed '.

 

Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on November 5, 2012 at 4:22am

Brandon you are one tough cookie mate lol

Ok listen the only thing proven here is that this was a bigger problem than what aftal could have handled in this momment in time, AFTAL have some brilliant work we cant discredit them for that.

And so have people like Gary King, He has had similar s*** to me from death treats to name bashing etc, It is very common in this industry this is why its hard to make true friends.

Now Ken came on here and expressed how he feels and he feels that maybe aftal should have helped him out at the time when he asked, Problem i seem to find is that because aftal did not know how to handle something this size (which is not a crime by the way because it was formed by collectors and not scientists), Things took as long as they have taken For them to find the right legal team and that team to be able to request or demand everyones story , Also I believe it does not take a day or too but weeks as I have had s*** happen to me before so i can see why it takes for ever.

I have come on here time and time again to try and help if a question has been asked and there is no one to answer , Because the board has been told to stay clear of this forum and also the UK forum or anything that is direct to the case.

Now I have said before there are many inteligent people on here and they want answers and so does everyone else. But we wont get them untill we see the statement this week guys so lets hang tight it wont be a month its this week for sure, And then just like Ken came on here am sure Dominic and Gary will also do guest spots.

Now in regards to adrian , I would like to once again mention that a decade ago he was the guy in UK at list that every collector and dealer looked up too , etc

So people are confused its like some one here saying Steve is chinese you will be like what ? No he is not I can see his face on the photo his is white.

Now also at the point we all have opinions this is another fact , So lets hope we get the answers we need soon.

Aftal are trying hard to solve this mess people are not happy on both sides of the coin.

Lets give it a few more days guys you never know you might all get what you asked for if not then do what you do best :-)

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 5, 2012 at 5:24am

我同意，賈森。讓我們等待AFTAL的說法。

Permalink Reply by DB on November 5, 2012 at 5:33am

U mean Cyrkin isn't chinese?

so while we ponder ethinicity and liens we move onto waiting for the next Edition of Release From Aftal (which hopefully clears up the 1st two attributed to AFTAL at the same time) for this 3 ring circus - here are a couple of points;

Ken Mills (I am only posting once never to return) said, "I have known Adrian a long time plus also the members of the AFTAL Board who having viewed video evidence and presumably spoken to countless collectors who knew for certain he was in L.A. for about 3 months leading up to M.J's death had issued a statement saying they were in no doubt that the autographs were 100% authentic. What would you do ? To me at the time it was a ' no brainer"

If I were Ken Mills then I'd have no issue in believing those that have such insight in an area I do not specialize in.  While Trust but Verify is keen sometimes it can lead to the "no brainer" mindset.

Now I have noticed only too well on the earlier threads on this subject that Roger is seen as the new Messiah of authenticating. Having never heard of him because I never had my autograph stock subjected to authentication I looked him up on Google and found that like myself and others he has his fair share of detractors too. Like myself he is human, and can and has it seems made his share of mistakes so let's not kid ourselves that this problem is only confined to the U.K. On a happier note he did give a positive authentication on a set of Jimi Hendrix Experience and Pink Floyd autographs I sold to a collector in Sweden so I do accede he has a very good knowledge of Music autographs.

Roger is no messiah in that sense of the word but he does spend alot of time and when he makes a wrong call he typically takes ownership of it from what I've seen.  Incidently, had he called your autographs bad, what would your opinion of him been then?

and the most important comment of all;

I did view the images of Roger Epperson's scratchplates and as with others felt that his argument about MJ not writing one of his letters as high as normal didn't clear the matter up because the h*** in the plate didn't allow MJ to write fully.

and that is where the discussion ought to have been from Day 1.  Everyone check their "egos" and "credentials" at the door and let the evidence stand as presented.  The smoke & mirror approach along with legal briefs, flamethrowing, spears, accusations, innuendos and folklore has seldomly solved anything.

resulting typically in your reflection.

thus; On reflection I should have listened more to the growing body of evidence but a ) I really didn't want to believe that somebody who had been a friend would do anything to harm my Business and b) I am just one of over 100 Dealers who are currently members of AFTAL and whether someone from the Board will actually admit they stuffed up big style I will put my neck on the block and state that in my opinion they let me down, all the other members down, and themselves.

Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on November 5, 2012 at 11:27am

Brandon

it seems it is all coming out now

AFTAL have let their members down, and they have not shown themselves in good light anymore

As for Adrian, I collected with him from approx 2000 to 2005, his items were good at that time, I was with him when we got MCCartney etc

But I lost track of him after that, so I cannot say anything about items distributed after that time.

Roger Epperson has thrown doubts about most items distributed by Adrian for the past 3 years, so a lot of people may have his items in their collection

AFTAL ..... now there is a question

What did they do to help anyone ?

They chose to protect Adrian and we await their response this week, I am hoping they come clean and announce what we all know !

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 5, 2012 at 5:06am

How do you manage to keep bypassing our profanity filter, Jason?

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on November 5, 2012 at 11:14am

Ken,

Thank you for your reply to the forum. I kinda knew you had to keep responding

I have to be careful with my responses as you know but a few points I have to state...

Everyone can be caught out when items are sold that were not obtained by the seller themselves. I buy from collectors in London, personal contacts that I trust 100%.

But you never know if one suddenly decides to make a few bob / a buck by scribbling away a few extras

I check my suppliers regular, I ask other friends at events if they did they see my supplier at the event, Did they see them get anything signed , if yes , what was the item etc etc

I like it when I attend an Awards event / Premier, then I am with my collectors, stood next to them observing them collect with me.

You trusted your source, and of what you say, he WAS a Top collector. He actually did attend events all over UK and USA.

Also YES.... it was me who introduced Adrian to America.... GUILTY as charged lol

I went to Los Angeles collecting autographs early 2002 and he asked if he could accompany me, to which I said yes.

This was benficial to me as it cut my Hotel / Car rental costs by 50%

I have stated this to the Forum previously as you hopefully may remember in August.

At that time I informed the Forum that Adrian was a good collector and a personal friend and I was shocked at the Allegations of forgery surrounding him

I offered reasons that perhaps the Jacksons were handed into security and perhaps were returned as Secaterials

I also remember that upset you, and you accused me of siding with the USA in what you thought was a UK versus USA war of Authentic Autographs

Plus other innuendos and threats were issued or implied

I do appreciate you have been brave in your response to the Forum and I can see your hurt and obviously now seriously out of pocket with items you have bought from Adrian

I hope you can pursue him and return all the items for a full refund

I am very impressed by your responses with reference to the Jacksons never being sold and I do hope the Forum looks upon this favourably also

You have seriously been let down and I hope you can get some kind of compensation / refund in the near future

Gary Harvey

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