Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Cogo on December 9, 2012 at 10:47am

Please explain one thing for me!

How come it´s so quiet about this Milton Lubin forger from the many US members who had a lot to say in the thread "Questions on music items from Autografica". 

This silence is really odd for me, because Substance Collectables seems to be as bad as it can be when it comes to forgery.

Is it not as much fun to talk about the "s*** on your own doorstep" or why is it like this?

Not looking to "start a fight", just curious why it is this way! :-)

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on December 9, 2012 at 11:03am

Probably because this discussion involves a relatively unknown dealer of boxing memorabilia and the other involves a major organization that rids the market of forgeries.  If something similar occurred with the UACC I am sure that you would see a lot of interest in the discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on December 9, 2012 at 1:42pm

I am in no way being hostile or anything of the kind, but i really cant understand where the hard feelings are coming from between the US and the UK dealers. AFTAL as a monster agency, spanning all collecting genres, so the attention they got, was very much expected. And unfortunately it provided negative attention to very good AFTAL members. But that isnt the U.S's fault, Adrian was selling likely forgeries, and they were called out. It just so happened that he was involved with AFTAL, and some premature statements were made by several people from AFTAL that seemed to just add fuel to the fire, making it many times bigger than it probably would have ever become.

The US has huge forgery problems, but without a central autograph board, i dont see what else US collectors should be doing. Once the problem is reported on, what else can be done from members that arent familiar with that genre. And even members that are familiar with it, what can we do? We know that Morales, and many other companies like NE autographs deal with forgeries, and we report on it all the time, but it never gets the attention we all think it should get. The only real thing we can do is get the word out on both sides of the ocean. The situation is no different in the UK. Just because this situation with Lubin hasnt caught wildfire doesnt mean that its being brushed under the rug. But then again, it might be, maybe others know something i dont. 

This is very frustrating b/c forgeries are the same on both sides of the ocean, and certain areas get more attention then others. But i will digress their. My question is, and i really do want to know, is what should we be doing different. What should the members here on this site who dont know boxing be doing? What should the ones that do know boxing be doing? Jason already nailed this guy, but what else should we do. What is done in the UK after a similar situation, which the seller doesnt belong to any organization? How is it different than what the US does?

It would be great if some members who knew boxing on this site would come forward and speak. Does anyone know any other organizations or dealers that know of this guy selling forgeries and have kept it quiet? We need to know those names if this is happening. I just dont know what the US collectors should be doing that is different? jason has nailed him, so what else can we add to the conversation other than more examples. If others will let us know what they want done then maybe we can help. 

AFTAL has really surprised me in this situation at how they have stepped up so far. I had thought at one time i would never buy from another dealer under that brand if it was swept under the rug. But thats no what happened and things seem to be getting better. I now have faith and am approaching this from an open mind and am trying not to assume anything. And hopefully the UK dealers will not assume that b/c Milton hasnt been brought up here before that their is a cover up. But if others have evidence that their is a cover up then we need to know it.

Other than that, i keep hearing that we arent doing enough, but what should we be doing? I really do and i think others want to know to. I probably cant help much since i dont know much about boxing, but im willing to try. I just dont know what else we should be doing or investigating. If others are doing something fishy here in the US in regards to MIlton, can someone point us to where we can research this?

Both the US and the UK are fighting forgeries, and certainly their should be no us vs them mentality. That wont help anything at all.

But i am genuinely interested in additional info on how to move this forward.

Carl

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Permalink Reply by Cogo on December 9, 2012 at 10:03pm

Thanks Carl for taking the time and effort to give me your opinion on this mess.

I know to little about the autographbuisness to come up with any "solutions", it´s just sickening that all of this crap (Adrian Longdon, Milton Luban, Michael Bush...) just keeps on going and going and there is not much we can do about it... :-(

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Permalink Reply by Cogo on December 9, 2012 at 10:04pm

A valid point, but it´s still forgeries for thousands and thousands of dollars. That´s just sad!

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on December 15, 2012 at 3:05am

Scan 1 Joe Frazier Getty Images photo at book signing.

Scan 2   Joe Frazier Getty Images photo used by senior authenticator of Substance Collectabes on You Tube video to promote his web site.

Scan 3  Joe Frazier photo of New York Times.

Scan 4   Joe Frazier New York Times photo  used by senior authenticator of Substance Collectabes on You Tube video to promote his web site.

Scan  5  A warehouse and  showroom images on  Substance Collectables Web site.

Scans 6 and 7 The warehouse and showroom images were copied from Sports Posters website.

 

Scan 8  Muhammad Ali glove from Substance Collectables listed by  id Ebay ID buckman_2525 . Collectors of Muhammad Ali items know that proof shot belongs to Stacks of Placques.

The senior  authenticator never had a signing with Muhammad Ali.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on December 20, 2012 at 12:29am

The Better Business Bureau has requested that Substance Collectables remove BBB name and logo a second time

http://www.bbb.org/new-york-city/business-reviews/toys-retail/subst...

 

This firm has misrepresented itself as a BBB Accredited Business on its Web site at www.substancecollectibles.com.  On January 4, 2012, the BBB requested that this firm cease and desist all unauthorized use of the BBB name and logo on its website. As of February 3rd, 2012, the case has been closed as unpursuable

THIS FIRM IS NOT CURRENTLY A BBB ACCREDITED BUSINESS with the Better Business Bureau Serving Metropolitan New York, the service area in which it is headquartered

 

This firm has misrepresented itself as a BBB Accredited Business on its Web site at http://www.substancecollectables.com/.  On November 16, 2012, the BBB requested that this firm cease and desist all unauthorized use of the BBB name and logo on its website. THIS FIRM IS NOT CURRENTLY A BBB ACCREDITED BUSINESS with the Better Business Bureau Serving Metropolitan New York, the service area in which it is headquartered. As of November 29, 2012, the business has not responded and the case has been closed as unpursuable

 

Scan 1  Enlargement of Substance Collectables Ali signed glove auction with proof shot from Stacks of Placques

 

Scan 2  Mike Tyson signed boxing glove PSA/DNA

Scan  3 Mike Tyson signed boxing glove PSA/DNA with image of only the glove

 

Scan 4   enlargement of Mike Tyson signed boxing glove PSA/DNA

Scan 5  The same Mike Tyson boxing glove on Substance Collectables, with the image cropped so the PSA/DNA  certification on the right side of the glove on the Everlast label is not included.

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Permalink Reply by kevin musiol on December 21, 2012 at 6:28am

what about his stuff with Online Authentics???

Something that seen on his website was the ali beatles photo he has for sale with steiner and online authentics a checked the OA signature with the photo signature and it was exact,but then a clicked on the photo and you see the OA proof and certs and photo out the frame but on the photo the cassius clay sig is further along than the origanal photo you see on the site before you click in the details and also the cassius clay signature is completely diffrent then to the OA number your given.

so he does have the original photo that mathes OA but it seems to me you will be getting a photo where the signatures moves further along and the signature doesnt match OA both things are easily noticble HAVE A LOOK let me know what you think.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on December 21, 2012 at 7:13am

Its called fake reproduction. He buys one genuine use that to advertise and rolls out another 50 on the back of that shop front original..

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on December 22, 2012 at 3:15am

Scan 1  From Substance Collectables web site: 5  Muhammad Ali gloves with Substance Collectables coa but with Stacks of Placques proof shot that AliAutos.com tells you not to buy.

They go for $ 3,599.00. Buy them, try to sell them on ebay, and they will be removed.

 

Scan 2  From Substance Collectables web site: Muhammad Ali robe for $ 899.99 with Substance Collectables coa that AliAutos.com tells you not to buy. Buy it, try to sell it on ebay and it will be removed.

 

The senior authenticator never had a signing with with Muhammad Ali.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on December 30, 2012 at 2:52am

http://www.finnegan.com/publications/updatenewsletters/pubdetail.as...

Internet Trademark Case Summaries

Tiffany (NJ) Inc. vs. Luban

282 F. Supp. 2d 123 (S.D.N.Y. 2003)

Plaintiff, the producer of famous TIFFANY jewelry and luxury goods, sued defendant regarding its Internet sales of counterfeit goods bearing plaintiff’s TIFFANY trademarks.  After plaintiff sent a cease-and-desist letter to defendant with no success, plaintiff sued for trademark counterfeiting.  Defendant never answered the complaint, and the court granted plaintiff’s motion for default judgment.  Plaintiff elected to recover statutory damages instead of actual damages under the counterfeiting provision of the Lanham Act.  Plaintiff identified 28 different counterfeit TIFFANY items on defendant’s website, each infringing at least four of plaintiff’s marks.  Because of the default judgment, defendant’s infringement was deemed willful, which entitled plaintiff to recover between $500 and $1,000,000 per counterfeit mark per type of product sold.  Using these guidelines, plaintiff submitted that it could be entitled to as much as $100 million in statutory damages and urged the court to award no less than $550,000.  The court awarded plaintiff $550,000 in statutory damages based on defendant’s willful infringement and use of the Internet to pursue an unlimited customer base.  The court also awarded plaintiff attorney’s fees in the amount of $23,818.64.

Scan 1   HipHopDx.com had teamed with HBO Sports for a lucky person to win  Jones Calazghe signed boxing glove a few years ago.

Scan 2    The senior authenticator claimed that Substance Collectables had been the one who teamed up with HBO Sports for the glove and used their photo as well.

Scan 3  Another example of the senior authenticator exploiting the Frazier family tragedy for his personal gain, to promote his web-site,

Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on January 6, 2013 at 11:12am

Scan 1 Substance Collectables coa. The name "American Greats", the image of Muhammad Ali, and backgound was copied from American Greats postcard.

Scan 2  American Greats postcard.

 

Scan 3   Substance Collectables coa. The lower right corner shows the image was copied from Walter Looss, Sports Illustrated , and the image belongs to Getty Images.

 

Scan 4   proper use of the Getty Images photo, on the book More Than A Hero, by Hana Ali.

 

Scan  5  Getty Images photo of Cassius Clay.

 

Scan 6   Getty images photo used by Substance Collectables.

 

Scan  7  HBO Sports boxing banner

 

Scan 8   HBO Sports boxing banner used by Substance Collectables

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