Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Xwiesy on April 21, 2013 at 4:32pm

That is indded good. Thatmlittle bridge to the bottom of the d is telltale....

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on April 21, 2013 at 3:47pm

Thank you for the input and for the great Madonna exemplars. I appreciate the discussion and the opinions of knowledgeable collectors or collectors that are open for fair discussion. Once again most 3rd party autograph authenticators would never even be available or open for debate. I do not know what " rOb G"  issues are or who he is, but he seems to think he knows more then most when it comes to authentication and autographs.

First I must say I have no idea who the ebay seller of this signed photo is, I have never personally dealt with them but I did physically examine this signature for the original party. I personally authenticated this Madonna autograph not by scan but by a full examination with the use of the largest library of in-person authentic autographs in the world.

I agree with Carl Ryan , after examining the sellers ebay listings he is offering a mixed bag of autographs. He has some good and some bad autographs listed, they are selling Global, PSA/DNA, JSA and P.A.A.S. authenticated items as well as some items without authentication.

Once again I would like to point out how important it is not to authenticate the Dealer, The Authenticator or even the price of the item in question. I see this done almost daily. If this item had a PSA/DNA, or JSA certificate there would most likely not even be a discussion. Also if I told you that this item was obtained originally by Michael Wehrmann, presspasscollectibles or Autograph Pros the signature would now be without question authentic.  

I have once again reviewed my notes and examined the scan in question and I will stand by my original opinion that this black and white photo has been hand signed by Madonna. I have also just for a 2nd opinion, sent out a scan to a trusted in-person autograph collector whom I know and have personally seen obtain Madonna on a few occasions. He agreed that it is more then likely an authentic signature.

 

Madonna's signature has so many variations, some time the 1st signature she gives out may look nothing at all like the 5th one. There are certain patterns to look for and I believe this one fits a majority of items that I look for on a in-person Madonna signature from 2009-2012.

   Madonna is by far one of the most difficult signatures to obtain in person and one of the most difficult signatures to authenticate.  Here are some 100% authentic exemplars to work with and examine. Once again I am here on Autograph Magazine Live to try and work with collectors and to be available for civil discussions and to explain 3rd party authentication.

 

PSA/DNA Authentication:

 

 

JSA Authentication:

 

 

 

 

In Person Markus Brandes

 

ROGER EPPERSON :

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Tyler Gray on April 21, 2013 at 3:54pm

Sorry.. the bottom line is that I would NEVER purchase or deal with PAAS. Too many items look fishy and I believe that is consensus of not only collectors on here, but in general. It doesn't have a very good reputation.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on April 21, 2013 at 4:52pm

Mr Gray,

I am sorry to disagree, but P.A.A.S. does have a good reputation and hass been getting much more credit as of late. Many more auction houses are now using and excepting P.A.A.S. and many of the rumours and bad blood has been put to rest. I can tell you I have been working harder then anyone in this industry to prove the creditability of P.A.A.S.

I can never say that we have never made a mistake but we work very hard and do hours of reseach to try and make sure we are not wrong.

When you state a claim like " Too many Items look Fishy" that is were problems and rumours start.  P.A.A.S. has examinted over 15,000 items in 2012, how many of these items would you say look fishy. I would not be upset if you show some fishy items and explain were you have seen so many items examined and authenticated by P.A.A.S..

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Permalink Reply by Tyler Gray on April 21, 2013 at 4:56pm

No matter what you say or do, I will never personally use this service nor recommend it to anyone. You can save your breath, or in this case typing.

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Permalink Reply by Dan Gregory on April 21, 2013 at 4:04pm

I avoid GAI and GA and have never yet purchased an item with PAAS. The only reason is the items I've seen with these authentications that I have been interested in have always looked slightly off. I'm not saying that these Companies do not authenticate genuine items but so far for me I've avoided.

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Permalink Reply by Xwiesy on April 21, 2013 at 4:45pm

I guess it comes down to this: there really isn't a way to authenticate the sloppy rushed scribbles.

Let's get that out of the way right now.

My point is that if you are going to plop down money for a Madonna autograph, get a perfect one so you don't have to sit here and worry if some forger is attempting her sloppy one because it's a heck of a lot easier than her real one, which is impossible to forge- she has at least six things to look for, and you'd be hard pressed to do it right.

That first PSA example on the guitar- you could never determine that to be real, and if you did, you're kidding yourself. The same goes with many of the examples Michael posted. Could they be real? Sure. But for the money, you'd better of steering clear. Buying a discounted autograph because it's sloppy is akin to buying an Ernie Banks rookie card with three corners torn off. You got it cheap for a reason, and you're always going to have to explain it when you resell it.

Just pay the price for a good one so you don't get duped by one of these third party folks who can in no way shape or form truly tell you anything about a scibble. Look at the Al Pacino's you see, case in point.

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Permalink Reply by Anne Marie LaProvidenza on April 21, 2013 at 4:57pm

Great advice !!

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Permalink Reply by Rock G III on April 21, 2013 at 6:51pm

Mr Frost I never said I know more than most. What a strange comment for someone who says they know nothing about me. 

My opinion is I have seen way too many PAAS items removed by ebay and have seen some sketchy autos from them therefore I WONT TOUCH them. No one has to listen to me but as for my collection there will never be one of these items in my collection and thats my opinion and am allowed to say it when I please. 

And before you go into your "show me examples" they have been pulled from ebay over a year ago for being fake and at the time I didnt think I would be needing to keep records. Most are aware of this, but dont take my word for it ask outside of here what people think. And you may not like what you hear. Heck people said it right here also lol

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on April 21, 2013 at 10:18pm

Xwiesy,

That is an excellent point and it make a lot of sense to me. I do not know the policies of other 3rd party autograph authenticators but I usually will not render an opinion on many rushed in-person autographs. Although in many cases they most likely are authentic ,I just to not want my name attached to the item and I would feel guilty to just take a customers money on a scribble rushed signature. P.A.A.S. will not charge nor authenticate Al Pacino, or many Drew Barrymore, Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga, signatures. 

rOb G

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and if you have personal issues with P.A.A.S., I am always available to discuss them. But I do not think the attacks are fair unless you know the facts and all that is involved with the business of autograph authentication and all that comes with it. For instance to say you have seen way to many items removed from ebay is a bit misleading. As I said there is mush more involved and there more politics and jealous involved in this business then any other business I can think of.  You Opinion is fair but I just ask to be civil and try not to have an open mind. You really do not know or understand what it is like to authenticate autographs full time.  This goes for JSA, PSA/DNA and Roger Epperson as well, to examine 1000's of autographs and when one or two items out of 1000 may be questioned or someone disagrees with your opinion you are put out in front of the public as unknowledgeable, corrupt  or simply a bad authenticator. They are many blogs, websites and individuals that depend on the few items that are questioned and brought to the attention of millions.The forgers in this industry eat it up when autograph authenticators disagree or are in a feud. Also when individual items are call upon or challenged by collectors or the public. I know most autograph authenticators have just backed off and made themselves unavailable to the public and collectors.

Once again I am sorry about your opinion, but at least I can say I am here to discuss and or explain any of my certificates and my work. I am also available to show genuine exemplars and to help collectors from being ripped off. 

Thank you for your time.

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on April 22, 2013 at 11:19am

Most peoples opinions of PAAS and yourself are due to your past actions and authentications. All one has to do is search this site to see for themselves. Most new members dont know about this, but all the old ones do. 

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Permalink Reply by Ian Baldock on April 22, 2013 at 12:14pm

I will say one thing for mr frost, and  I dont know him. I  do respect the fact that he does come on here and reply to members and is civil about it when people are quite critical of his service.

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