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Authenticity is Everything
PSA/DNA Certified Items - Right or Wrong
Not being a dealer or auctioneer I am perfectly suited to referee this discussion if need be. This section is mostly for Items that PSA/DNA has certified that in an opinion of authenticators has missed the mark (AND NOT as far as they know been corrected) along with any other items of significance.
In some cases the certification provided might be a simple rejection while in other cases it's certifying it as authentic when it may be far from it.
The thread is not about the good, the bad or ugly of 3rd parties as there is already an excellent thread in the forum on this started by R&R's Bobby Livington that everyone should follow. That thread alone has produced three disccusions on Farrah Fawcett, Elvis, and now this.
Hopefully, AM members will follow this thread (I am sure the fraudsters & propaganda machines will) and point others to it - Perhaps, the owners of the item that is cited. Those owners can then deal with the authentication firm or sellers and report back their journey.
Since I don't expect the PSA/DNAs of the world to come online and defend/refute (althugh the have an open invitation) the postings then be advised this is not a thread to speculate, accuse, or otherwise besmirch what is or what isn't being done.
So 'nuff said and on with the items. To keep discussions focused and contained - Each Item contributors need to stay in the realm of that item so commentary is not all over the place.
remember if you post an item denote the PSA/DNA number on their sticker... One, if they choose can also validate the item's number on the PSA/DNAs database to see if it is in fact a product of PSA/DNA as we have heard that the fraudsters are/have created bogus ones and report your findings here.
Tags: certification, certifications, errors, forgeries, psa, psa/dna
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by john reznikoff on
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Travis,
I have appreciated some of your posts but have to say that I don't understand why you have not opined on the boxing autographs posted here by several? I think offerering you expertise, which I am sure is significant, would be a great compliment to the activity of identifying errors that are made in your field.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Panagopulos on
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I don't get it...Does Bobby mean that R&R's "internal authenticators" are one in the same as PSA?
I've re=read his post three times.
Maybe it's the late hour. Or maybe it explains why he promotes them so heavily?
Shop at Elmer's for all your Christmas needs. Mention me for a 10% discount. Except DB - he gets 15% for quantity purchases.
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Permalink Reply by DB on
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Hi Rez, et all - glad to see everyone is doing just fine out here. Speaking of fine, I had the pleasure of meeting the Park West Auctioneers the other day with a group of friends at their auction. I purviewed their sports item and they had an "authentic" ali (as in the ONE BL depicted on the glove the other day) along with Norton.... but they had a Fake (meThinks of Sonny Listion & Ali) one of a Sonny but I'll be damned if I had Travis's exemplars! Since most know that Park West deals mostly in fine arts... there sports may have some flaws. I warned a close friend of not buying an Ali (although they claimed it was from the ali foundation) but it did not comport to the one that BL displayed.
I hope to have that shortly and a picture for review as I would like one's opinion and appraisal value. It is one of Ali with Lennon/Oko (of course, the latter 2 unsigned). Again, I hope people put their two pence in when I post it in a few days.
But the snob that I am did however acquire a krasnyanksy and peter max but it's nice to be back in the frey.
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Bill,
I am printing your last post, picture and all, as a coupon to give to all my family and friends for christmas...hoping you will extend me the same 15% that DB gets?
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John - You, of course, get our preferred customer, high-volume discount (20+ liters/week).
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It seeems the same dealers that bash 3rd party authentication are the SAME dealers you can find MOUNTAINS of BAD S*** in their auctions and/or websites. No wonder, they DON'T want ANY independent, OBjective analyis on their secretarials and forgeries. .
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Here is a dealer in Las Vegas that never uses 3rd party authentication and prices 5-10 times value on most their items. Now take a look at this Judy Garland. If you KNOW her signature AND handwriting then this is a no brainer,..what do you think? Imagine paying the $5000 (which is actusally LOW for them) and later getting it authenticated..??
http://cgi.ebay.com/JUDY-GARLAND-INSCRIBED-PHOTOGRAPH-SIGNED-/30025...
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Permalink Reply by Rick Badwey on
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It amazes me they put this stuff out. Even if real, most of the stuff that sells is under $300 (for a no name). You wonder doesnt relisting hundreds of items cost tons of money! what is the point in doing this?
Plus, Ebay is more of a bottom feeders, bargain basement operation.....Put a decent GW discharge up for $10000 and it may sit for a while!
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Rick, I would typically agree that when you go to high end you starting thinking other "auction houses" although, if it had the associated credentials there are some high rollers out there (once you eliminate the wingnut biddgers) on ebay.
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Travis,
I never said that all these are forgers. My point is I have been reading more "anti 3rd party authenticator" blogs from many of the most notoriously BAD dealers. NOT Forgers, BUT dealers who sell Blatantly bad autographs. Dealers who sell Obvious secretarial autographs in their weekly auctions, and I have to believe they KNOW they are selling bad autographs. Or else they should NOT be operating with such incompetence. I won’t mention names because I think many of us know who they are.
That said, I am still NOT buying this argument that PSA/JSA are "bad for the hobby". And, I definitely DO NOT Buy the argument that customers should only TRUST COAs from the seller. Because when you think about it that is just a ludicrous argument.
Now, you guys don’t like PSA or JSA and seem to be like the unruly kid in the classroom who is always sticking his hand up just waiting, hoping, salivating for the moment when he can prove the teacher wrong in the front of the whole classroom. It may take all year to find the teacher wrong but once he does then he can forever discredit the teacher for getting one out of 1000 math problems incorrect.
So, it is not PSA or JSA you loath ,, it is ANYONE who assumes some authority over the autograph industry. OK, so let’s get rid of PSA and JSA and start all over. Hire another group of guys. But, of course we will be back in the same boat. Because there will never be a formula, a standard by which to authenticate the subjectivity of autographs. Because they are NOT math equations, they are dynamic, erratic never ending variances in the stroke of a pen by another human. SO this argument “look everyone PSA passed this known fake two years ago” is quite ridiculous because, OF COURSE they will make mistakes, the analysis is Human Analysis , NOT computers……
Hence, an objective analysis will NEVER be possible. BUT you know what?, the subjectivity is multiplied TIMES TEN from the selling dealer because now , not only is he dealing with the SAME dynamics, the same volatility, BUT now ADD the BIAS of GREED into the equation. And, there you have even reputable dealers PASSING BAD autographs they KNOW are BAD. This is ONE variable that the 3rd party does NOT induce into their equation. Where they can provide a valuable second opinion.
Now don't get me wrong , I find a lot of things wrong with PSA or JSA. For one, the industry should REQUIRE them to identify WHO did the analysis on each autograph and have that person's expertise profile on their web site. But, if the industry does not push it, it will never happen. And, the industry DOES have that power over them because without the collectors they are all out of business. Collectors should bring the issue to the major clients of PSA/JSA like Heritage and R&R. among others.I am not sure what the solution is, but until there is a standard, an objective tool by which to analysis autographs, relying solely on the seller’s COA is TRIPLE the risk and just plain dumb. Until then every dealer should always include a lifetime guarantee COA and adding a PSA or JSA with that is the best solution there is today.
CHECK AND BALANCE...without it, the autograph industry will CONTINUE to spiral into oblivion,
even deeper then the contamination of eBay’s safe forger haven over the past decade, has already sunk it.
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Travis,
This is where your argument REALLY falls apart,
"A coa is just a piece of paper, throw that argument out. its backing up that coa with a guarantee. reputable dealers will guarantee their autographs and give refunds. When has psa or jsa ever given a refund on
their coa? never.".
I will be honest with you. Based on that premise I would NEVER buy an autograph from you. Because you just made it clear you would NEVER give a refund. Why? because by “disagreeing” with all 3rd
party authentication you just VOIDED your responsibility. No authority or official entity exists to
analyze, refute or certify your autographs..
A few months ago someone posted a great case study here where another
dealer who sold a Fake autograph (I think Rat Pack signatures) Voided her
responsibility to refund by saying exactly what you are saying here. Hence she Never has to give a refund for her
blatant forgeries, because all she has to do is say “Oh I don’t agree with PSA
or JSA”.You can beat this argument to death (or go to Koschal’s blog of incoherence and hear his abysmal demented twist on the subject) , but it is clear that discrediting all 3rd party authentication
is a very dangerous and slippery slope for this industry which has already suffered
irreparable damage from eBay’s anonymous and NO Accountability culture which I already lamented in detail in my previous post.SO, that is the message I get whenever I hear the 3rd party bashing, “I will Never give you a refund no matter what because I know more than anyone else and I disagree with anyone who says that I sold you a forgery”.
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Travis,
I think you are stuck on the point of "what these companies do is take the responsibility out of the collector and dealers hands".
NO NO they don;t because it is the DEALER/SELLER who is responsible to guarantee authenticity NOT the 3rd party authentication. 3rd party is just a strong second opinion. But, the PSA/JSA should NEVER replace the
dealer lifetime COA. Is just an icing
in the cake add on. AND PLUS, a check and balance DESPERATELY Needed for
the MULTITUDE of BAD autograph dealers.
Many years on eBay I discovered, WHO hates PSA and JSA the most? The forgers and the regular sellers of secretarials and autopens.What Baffles me the most is how PSA and JSA get more bashing then the REALLY BAD authentication services. Have you ever tracked GAI or Online Authentics certifications on eBay? Or the infamous forensic “experts” ?? YIKES!!.
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