Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bruce Juice on June 18, 2015 at 2:28pm

Yes, you did comment on an autograph I posted (but I did not say I got myself).  I can find it and post your comments but I'm not trying to embarrass you or "be wise"  -- I'm simply saying that trusting your own opinion on Springsteen autographs can be very dangerous and expensive. Unless you don't care if it's real or not or ever want to trade or sell it.

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Permalink Reply by Trond Johansen on June 18, 2015 at 2:33pm

As I said, I have no interest in selling, buying or do any kind of business on autographs anymore. I just keep my own collection of 100% real autographs (Yes, I have only those) for myself, to keep for the future, and have no own interest like a lot of others in this hobby. I just state my opinion on what I think is good and not good, and will not let people like you stop me from saying what I think about something I see here.

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Permalink Reply by Bruce Juice on June 18, 2015 at 3:35pm

I'm not trying to stop you from stating your opinion. I'm trying to prevent other people on this site from buying Springsteen forgeries.  If anyone (not just you) keeps saying really bad stuff is legit -- I'm going call you out on it. I'm sure the other members of this forum appreciate that. 

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Permalink Reply by Trond Johansen on June 18, 2015 at 4:05pm

Ok, then I would say that the item imo would probably be not too bad if someone would like to consider buying the one in question over here. :-) I really have not read any issues about the actual autographs, just a lot of rambling about the person they are sold by. I am the only one that have commented on the actual autographs on the piece starting this thread. I tried to invite to a debate and keep focus on  the actual signatures on this piece, Tallent, Scialfa, Weinberg, Clemons, Springsteen, etc...and not the person that put them out for sale. And that concludes my opinion in this thread.

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Permalink Reply by J. Mikael on June 18, 2015 at 7:52pm

You've made some condescending comments about Roger Epperson in this thread, so I'd consider it only fair letting other readers know your own experience on the matter. Especially since you seem to be presenting yourself as an expert on the subject of Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band autographs.

I would wager you have zero in-person collecting experience, if you think being friends with musicians (of this caliber) somehow gives one (nevermind a well established dealer) an infinite supply of autographs.

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Permalink Reply by Bruce Juice on June 18, 2015 at 9:06pm

Well put J. Mikael.  And as for Tronds Johnson's  point about getting into the specifics of why the autographs are real or fake -- that would be just helping the forger (or other forgers who are on this site) correct their mistakes. And you never explained how Billy Smith keeps coming up with fully signed E. Street Band items 7 years after Danny Federici's death and 4 years after Clarence Clemon's death. 

Billy Smith is a dealer who makes money selling autographs and knows what things are worth.  Why would he let something go for $975 when (if it were real) would be worth $2000-$3000 at auction? 

Oh, yeah -- I forgot -- it's because he's a "good guy."

Permalink Reply by Trond Johansen on June 19, 2015 at 1:49am

I had determined to stop commenting on this thread, but have to chip in here now. This thread is becoming more and more childish. First, "condescending comments about Roger "? Where have you got that one from J.Mikael? Let me quote myself a couple of posts ago: "I respect Roger, and has used him for opinions before I bought a couple of my own Springsteen autographs some years ago, he is mostly good on rock items." What part of that is "condescending"? I said however that there are no Gods in determing sigs you haven`t got yourself in person. Is that  "condescending"? I guess Roger doesn't want to be looked at as a God himself, do you?

I can see an alarming use of rhetoric and politics here in trying to shut up someone who do not agree on a certain item. Seems like someone is happy to "discuss" items as long as everybody agree, but when someone says something unwanted, the "you are no expert, shut up, some experts say otherwise" appear to censor what is said. I have not said I am an expert, where did I say that? I would never say that. The thing you learn i this hobby is that the more you learn, the more you know how much more there is you don`t know. If anybody calls themself experts, that is when my alarm turns on. I thought this forum was for discussing autographs, let different opinions meet, and hopefully try to help in the fight against the real forgers. I, together with some other Scandinavians have, through this forum, managed to stop several bad forgers on Scandinavian selling-sites. That is what this what this forum should be for, not trying to censor and "kill" a discussion, and we should help this hobby to be as clean as possible.

And Bruce Juice, hello? Not discuss an autograph because you then will help the forgers? Then this forum could just be closed down immediately, this is just unbelievable. I was a lot here a couple of years ago, and must admit I can't remember things was like this back then. I gave you 2 possible reasons why Billy Smith can have auto`s of Danny Federici and Clarence Clemons; he may have bought them from others, or have them stored in his huge collection from earlier. But isn't that how people get sigs from deceased artists? I don't think this would be a surprise. And a full band piece for $975, I can't see anything wrong in that. I got my full band tour program 3 years ago for £1100. (And for J.Mikael; Roger said it is real ;-) ) And I have seen people get real (yes, Roger said it!) Springsteen sigs on Ebay for $150. Things like that happen, and is no argument whether an autograph is real or not.

And last, my "experience"? As I say, I hate people bragging about how much expert they are, if someone is good at certain autographs, they should let their opinions talk for themselves, not announce how good they are, because when they do a mistake, and everybody do that in this hobby, people will attack them, and try to tear down their reputation. But just to mention it; I have been collecting only  Springsteen/ESB items for some years now, and have some of them in my collection. These are the only interesting sigs for me, I like the music from other artists, but when it comes to collecting autographs, I have just kept to Springsteen/ESB. I have, of course, seen 1000`s of autographs from Springsteen/ESB online and elsewhere, and hope I have developed some kind of "experience" and instinct in this. 

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Permalink Reply by Cogo on June 19, 2015 at 2:52am

Just my thoughts on this:

1. To say that Trond made "condescending comments about Roger" in this thread is just wrong. Nowhere in this thread has he said such things. And I know for a fact that Trond thinks very highly of Roger Epperson. He even helped us when Trond and I exposed forgers in Sweden/Norway and never once did Trond say something bad about him to me, rather the opposite.

2. I have followed this thread closely and according to me, Trond never said or implied that he were an expert. He gave his opinion like others have done, that´s it. 

3. The price can´t be seen as "evidence" of an autograph is real or fake, that´s just silly. I bought my Springsteen/E Street from a renowned UACC dealer for way, way (!!!) less than what you guys claim a real one "must" cost. I even paid quite a lot less then the $975 that the one discussed in this thread costs, does that automatically make mine a fake too??? 

4. But unfortunally I have seen to many autographs (not only Springsteen) from Walls of Fame/Billy Smith that has been either deemed as fake, or have been deemed at least questionable, for me to buy from them again. But that´s just me, and I´m far from being an expert. Each one should make up their own minds and if someone doesn´t agree, then fine. 

5. I agree with you Trond about the discussion climate on this site, it has gotten way colder and unpleasent over the last few years. We should be able to have an civil discussion on this site, even if we don´t agree. But more and more often the discussions ends with name-calling and childish behavior and that an development I don´t like. Just to be clear, I´m not only talking about this thread, it´s more of an personal reflection of this site in general. And I really hope that negative development stops, because I love this great site!!

Stay classy people!! :-)

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Permalink Reply by Trond Johansen on June 19, 2015 at 6:17am

Thanks Jan, I agree in everything you state over here. And I understand your concern with buying something from someone if you have heard several questions about that particular seller/collector. I have absolutely no problems with that. 

This may be a little bit outside the topic here, but I think this is important to remember on this site that the hobby of autographs is a very individual hobby. Everybody may have their own opinions about a piece/autograph or seller. When you buy an autograph from someone, you will never know for 100% that this is a genuine real one. You have to trust your own opinion and instincts on this. The only way to know 100% for sure something is real, is when you get it in person from the celebrity. And then YOU know it, but if you try to sell it to someone else, they will always have that very small doubt whether you are actually trustworthy. This is the way of this hobby, you just have to trust people, and at the same time get as much knowledge about the autographs  you like as possible, to make your own opinion. There are people out there, like Roger Epperson, who has helped a lot of people when they are in doubt, and some of these people have good skills, especially on certain autographs. That is a good thing, and we should reach out to these people for advise and help. But, they are not flawless either, they do mistakes, they may be wrong sometimes, just like the rest of us. (Just maybe more correct in most cases.) 

To illustrate this with a personal example; a couple of years ago I found a Bruce Springsteen autograph on Ebay which I liked, and considered buying. My first instinct was yes, I want this, this is the real deal. I put it out here for opinions, and the verdict was about 75-25 % positive. I then decided to send it to someone for extended opinion, I sent it to JSA, PSA and Roger Epperson. JSA said they would not evaluate it, they didn't have the information to  help on that particular autograph. PSA returned with "Likely Not Genuine", Roger said "Great!" Ok, then I had 2 different opinions, and one that didn`t want to say anything, and a 75-25% here on AML. I decided then to follow my own instinct, and take the rest as advice, and bought the autograph. (It is still in my collection)

What I try to illustrate here, is that other people's opinions, in most cases must be treated as helpful advice, not as a 100% verdict about an item. We have to trust our own "gut" in the end. There are no alternatives to this, and it is in the end ourselves that take the risk if we decide to buy anything, and have not seen it been actually signed with our own eyes. 

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Permalink Reply by Mark Roberts on June 19, 2015 at 8:10am

The one thing I want to say about Roger saying this was good and "SOMEONE" from PSA looking at it.  That is 2 totally different things.  You know when you email Roger - HE will look at it.  Do you think the "Main" authenticators at PSA look at $10 opinions.  I highly doubt it.  So you really can't compare the 2.  

Mark

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Permalink Reply by Trond Johansen on June 19, 2015 at 9:04am

Yes, of course Roger`s opinion had a good weight in my decision. I agree that an advice from him is far better than the "faceless" organisation in PSA. But it was still only my decision, and mine alone. If it later, somehow, turned out that my autograph was a fake, I had taken the decision to buy it, and I would have been the only one to blame. (Except the forger of course)  

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Permalink Reply by Mark Roberts on June 19, 2015 at 8:06am

Agree 100% on your points - Jan.  I could not have said it any better. This site is for discussion on autographs the good and the bad, the why the why not.  I have learned so much from this site and hope it continues.  We lost Roger giving his expert advise….lets not lose anyone else.

YES - I have purchased other items Billy Smith that failed JSA, while others passed.  I just don't do business with him anymore.

Mark

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