Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on June 19, 2015 at 5:52pm

Authentic

Permalink Reply by Ken K on June 20, 2015 at 3:18pm

Thanks Terrier!

Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on January 2, 2016 at 4:49pm

I know this thread has been stagnant for a while. I'm a long time sports card collector attempting to educate myself on autograph collecting. In trying to understand these third party authentications I just had a eureka moment. I feel like Eddie Murphy in the movie Trading Places. The scene when the two old men are explaining the commodity trading business. Murphy looks at them and says "sounds like you all a bunch of bookies". Which was really spot on.

These third party grading companies sound to me like financial rating agencies. I.E. S&P/Moodies. A stamp of AAA from them can turn any piece of garbage investment paper into a bonfied "low risk", liquid investment instrument. Before 2008, these companies began stamping AAA rating on just about any trash pool of mortgages and complex structured instruments their best (highest volume) customers submitted. This included pools of mortgage bonds (or their derivative equivalent) that were by any objective measure extremely high risk junk. About as sound of an investment as a Mickey Mantle autograph on a 2015 Topps card. Yet, 100s of billions of this trash paper was stamped AAA by S&P, Moodies and Finch under pressure to retain their highest volume customers (typically large investment banks and Merchant banks). A AAA rating made the paper a commodity, easily sold to any type of investor (pension fund, insurance company, municipality) sight unseen for top dollar.

My point? Has anybody considered writing a formal letter to the attorney general of NY? They have been, for decades, the edge of the spear on this type of fraud/facilitation of fraud. The rating agencies have been fined huge sums of money in recent years (not nearly enough IMHO) for being the facilitator in fraud and ignoring their conflict of interest. I am aware that GAI would not fall under the jurisdiction of the SEC. But NY has been on th forefront of taking on these kinds of things for some time. I know they are going after the forgery rings. But why not those who facilitate knowingly or by means of conflict of interest? There is case law and common law for this kind of breach of public trust.

Just a thought. But this is criminal on several levels. The financial rating agencies were a significant contributing factor to the Great Recession. There was an extended period of time when nobody trusted the risk in ANY financial paper. It crashed the market and nearly brought down the western economies. The autograph market can't do that, but I can see a scenario where prices crash because nobody trusts anybody's opinion. Markets behave in such a way.

Has anybody considered a unified approach such as this?

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 2, 2016 at 5:01pm

It sounds like you saw The Big Short.

Law enforcement doesn't do much in the autograph field. They've tried, but even rock solid cases usually fail to get the interest of a U.S. Attorney or state or local prosecutor.

Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on January 2, 2016 at 5:09pm

I lived the big short. And the collapse of Long Term Capital Management in 1998. Haven't seen the movie, but the book was spot on. I'm a reformed derivatives trader. Changed careers 8 years ago, just before it all went to hell. Never looked back.

Would rather hang out with my kids, coach pony league and talk about how awesome Clayton Kershaw is :)

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 2, 2016 at 5:15pm

You have the right priorities.

Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on January 2, 2016 at 5:16pm

That's truly a shame that US attorneys haven't been involved. I'm guessing it's the small scale of the enterprises involved that has kept civil litigators (tort) lawyers from getting involved. If GE was authenticating autographs I'm sure there would be 10 class action suits pending.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 2, 2016 at 5:29pm

The FBI in NYC gave them a big case on a silver platter in 2010-11 and they never pursued it. You're right about the class actions. 

You're right about the class actions. They're rarely filed in the collecting fields. 

Permalink Reply by GraphingMlb on January 2, 2016 at 5:29pm

I wouldn't call it small scale,forgery sales are a multimillion dollar industry in itself...

Permalink Reply by GraphingMlb on January 2, 2016 at 5:31pm

Ironically if Clayton Kershaw had a movie it would be called The Big Choke!!

Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on January 2, 2016 at 5:38pm

It wasn't Kershaw who couldn't buy a hit from the Mets. I know, 2014. Point taken.

Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on January 2, 2016 at 5:50pm

It's just a shame. I'd like to be a buyer of autographs. It seems to me if you don't have extensive knowledge, or willing to pay top dollar Steiner and the like, your simply rolling the dice.

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