Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by NCA Acker on August 2, 2018 at 1:39pm

No offense to anybody.  I had a recent transaction that gone bad under similar circumstances.  I took the album to JSA for a LOA and the autographs came out not genuine.  JSA told me to show the seller the LOA and try to get my money back.  I went through a few months of nightmare trying to get a refund.  JSA recommends that I stick with reputable sellers with store fronts and sellers whose items are authenticated by a reputable company.  They gave me Lee Hunter's name Walls of Sound located in Nashville, TN for autograph items in the music area.  My search lead me to this forum.  I just join about couple days ago so I am fairly new.

Lessons learned from that transaction is that I do my own research.  The LOA or certs provides some assurance that a professional pair of eyes reviewed it and deemed it okay.  I am not a regular collector and I only buy from time to time.   JSA and PSA are known authentication companies out there.  At least, I know someone professional looked at it.  I asked for LOA without the sticker on the item.

I will take into consideration what everyone recommends.  Before I make any decision, I want to do the research myself and I will consider what anyone has to say.

Thank you for responding to my post.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on August 2, 2018 at 4:36pm

It's hard to respond to this because we don't know if JSA blew the call. And they do screwup - a LOT. They're notably bad with music autographs, as has been discussed on this forum on several occasions.

The problem with TPAs are that they just aren't that good, let alone solid. I never buy anything on the basis of a  sticker and would honestly prefer to avoid it altogether. There are many, many good sources for autographs that don't use them.

Most pros tend to use JSA, PSA, Beckett because it makes their customers happy and improves sales. I'd say the majority of them probably don't really think all that highly of them.

The "professional pair of eyes thing" isn't entirely true. In many instances, JSA (and other third parties) will spend very little time with an item. You have often no idea who's actually reviewing it and, yes, these companies have employed more than their share of incompetent people. Companies like JSA have been known to rubber stamp signatures too, i.e. mass authenticating on the basis of thinking (correctly or incorrectly) that someone is trustworthy. That is, no one's really paying attention at all.

The other side of this is that if you stick to TPA stickers only, you eliminate an absolute ton of amazing items from consideration. This hobby is minefield, and there's really no way around it. But sticking with TPAs only with not score you the best deals, the most unique items or a collection that is 100% authentic.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 2, 2018 at 5:02pm

Well said, Rich. I wholeheartedly agree.

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Permalink Reply by NCA Acker on August 2, 2018 at 8:28pm

I understand what you are saying.  JSA did admit to me that they don't specialize in music.  They had to sent the item out to people they consult that specializes in that field to do the authentication.  Yes, they based their authentication by the authentication of the raters they consulted.  I don't know who they consulted but all the raters came back a "no" for that item.  If there was a couple "maybes", I could ask for a more detailed analysis.  All I can say is JSA is what was available for me to use and rely on at the time.

You are right.  If I rely on TPA completely, I would miss out on a lot of items.  I have items which I personally had signed at Comic-Con and I don't have certs on them because I know they are authentic.  So I totally understand what you are saying.  The key point is that I didn't know the seller so that poses a potential risk.

I think this forum is a good place to start.  As I get acclimated here, I would get to know who is who on here.  I will be observing, reading, and listening to people's recommendations.  I am open to people's recommendations and considering them.

Thank you for the response.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 2, 2018 at 10:04pm

NCA, you've got the right attitude and you're on the right track. Take your time, keep discussing things, and get to know the collectors and dealers active in autographs and you'll do well.

Glad you're here.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on August 2, 2018 at 11:03pm

JSA is making that up. They do not send out all those music autographs. They are giving you the standard line of BS that they send everyone. 

ive seen one of these 3 TPA’s authenticate 300+ autographs in a span of 2 hours with a 0% failure rate. All in a hotel room. I’ve seen another blow through almost 200 overnight in another hotel room For $8 a pop. Yeah right. 

These TPA’s are the worst thing to ever happen to the hobby. They favor the large dealers and many of them pushing forgeries. They are not referees or unbiased. They take the side of the person paying them large sums of money over protecting the hobby.

Steve Grad is the worst. Don’t even  feel like getting started on that fool again. Maybe another day.

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Permalink Reply by James on August 3, 2018 at 1:59am

Rick, I completely agree that the TPAs take the side of their big clients.  I’ve written that many times.  I could absolutely see them rejecting an item from me that I know for sure is authentic, but if a big client like Presspass sent the exact same item in, the TPA would certify it. And that’s pretty disgusting and problematic for the small-time collector.  If TPAs operated ethically and in a truly unbiased manner, they would be good for the hobby.  If they treated the small collector and big companies the same way, they would be an asset to the hobby.  Unfortunately, they often don’t operate that way which causes our hobby to have too many fakes floating around with LOAs from the big three attached to them, and many novice collectors automatically think these items are genuine.

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Permalink Reply by James on August 2, 2018 at 8:39pm

All very true.  I don’t think any of us expects that even a TPA should get it right every time, but I think the TPA strike out rate is much higher than it should be for the so-called “experts”.  To make a mistake on a very good forgery is one thing, but when it’s an overtly-obvious forgery and it still gets passed by PSA or JSA, then one really wonders what the hell is going on.  I’ve seen at least a couple of outrageously bad Michael Jackson forgeries that actually got certified by PSA that I don’t think anyone on here would have passed.  And the really bad thing is that once a fake item has a full letter of authenticity from PSA or JSA or Beckett, it can be passed around the hobby as authentic, although when it’s clearly obviously fake, the item may find a final resting place (with its LOA) since no one else will buy it.  

If someone only buys items with an LOA from a TPA without doing any homework, he will eventually get burned.  If after several months, he finds his PSA item is fake, theoretically he has some insurance in the LOA.  If he is unscrupulous, he can use the LOA to try to resell the item and recoup his loss.  That would be the only way that buying strictly only PSA, JSA, or Beckett would protect you.

I think to a certain degree, TPAs are needed in the hobby since they can play the roll of a referee.  But they do carry way too much weight, and they have the power to really harm people financially.  If they won’t certify your high-dollar item that you know beyond any doubt is real, the TPA can cost you thousands of dollars and pounds.  

When you send in a valuable item to PSA or JSA, you really want to know that an “expert” with that autograph is reviewing it.  I mean if you send in your treasured Michael Jackson item, whose provenance and authenticity you know very well, you want to know that a true MJ expert is going to be looking at it, and not someone with just a fleeting familiarity with MJ’s signature.  The same applies with any other high-dollar autographs like Kurt Cobain, Prince, or Elvis Presley.  You just pray that a truly competent person is going to review your item.

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Permalink Reply by NCA Acker on August 5, 2018 at 12:11am

I think you guys might be right and have something.   Recently, I have come across sellers on eBay that have large quantities of signed albums of one particular band.  They all have LOAs and when I look at the LOA of each of the albums, they are identical.  Same Authenticate person, same Notary signature and stamping on the same location of the LOA.  It almost seem like multiple copies of one LOA.  I was told each item takes about 6-8 weeks to authenticate.  If you send in multiple items, it takes longer.  You would think each item would be analyzed individually and have individual LOA.  If they flood the market with large quantities of one band's items, more than the demand, that would decrease the value of that band's signed albums right?  That would be bad for sellers and buyers wouldn't it?

While researching, I called a TPA to verify a cert #.  I asked them a simple question.  Of this multi signature album, who is the highest paid signer, they gave me the lowest paid signer on the album.  I actually asked them that question twice because I wanted to be sure I understood them clearly.  This tells me they don't have the knowledge base about the item that they authenticated.

I am not sure I like this.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 3, 2018 at 2:17am

"...I asked for LOA without the sticker on the item..."

That is wonderful! But do not place your trust in such services. I showed JSA and PSA Bowie "signatures" that are false earlier - there are many examples of other names. There is a thread here about bad BAS Roger Waters... See the pattern. Learn the signatures yourself. That IS the hobby IMHO. Never buy in haste. There is almost always another. Take your time.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 2, 2018 at 5:13pm

It can be difficult as a inexperienced collector to figure out what is what and who is who. You've come to the right place. Learn to do your own research and get to know members here. Most are extremely helpful and will offer sound advice. We all need that. Myself included.

Ebay can be treacherous. Although, once you get comfortable you will be able to pick up some deals from time to time.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 5, 2018 at 12:29am

And even if one had such a list, there are so many variables. Contrast, placement, type of ink, what is common/average and what is above, so many things...it is best to consider on a per item basis IMO. Joe is right - learn.

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