Charlton Heston Secretarial Signature Study

 Hi:

At Steve Cyrkin's invitation, I'd like to call your attention to a signature study I've posted on my blog, Charlton Heston signature study by Steve Zarelli.

I believe I have identified the "tell" in Charlton Heston secretarial signatures, and if I am correct, the news is not good for most collectors. It appears that most  Heston signed photos are secretarially signed.

 

Here is a synopsis:

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.  

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

I have attached two images to give you a small sampling.  

For more details and images, please visit my blog at the link below.

I'd love to hear your feedback and thoughts on this. I fully anticipate some resistance to the theory, because denial is always the first step. In fact, I would love to be proved wrong, because that would mean I wasn't sitting on a bunch of secretary signed photos!

By way of introduction, I have been collecting since the early 90s and I am the UACC Ethics Director.

I look forward to the discussion.

The Collecting Obsession

Regards,

Steve Zarelli

 

Tags: Charlton, Forgery, Heston, Secretary, authenticating, autograph, secretarial

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DB on August 24, 2011 at 3:25pm
what caught my attention on your post is that the Capital E u site having the characteristics... which leads me to believe you are perhaps a student of secretarials at least on heston.  Can you expand on this insight and experience?
Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter To DB on August 24, 2011 at 4:25pm

There are a number of indicators. The difference in "Chall" and "Char" that Zipper outlined here. Then in most of the secretarials there is the formation in Heston that looks a cursive capital E with a loop at the top which has been posted at isitreal.com for some time. Another thing I look at is in Heston in real ones, Heston wrote what usually looks close to a capital cursive S at the end and then a normal cursive n (which often dips below the rest of the signature). In the secretarials, that cursive S looking formation looks a lot more like an O than an S, and the normal cursive n usually doesn't dip. Also, in the secretarials, after the Chall, there's what looks a lot like another O which is often attached to the H at the end. The O shape in Charlton is smaller in size than the O in the Heston.

 

You can look at page 3 of this study to see a secretarial with the two O's that I'm talking about. Here's another example from eBay from as well.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Charlton-Heston-Autographed-Photo-PSA-DNA-/...

 

Now here's this "Char".

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHARLTON-HESTON-autographed-3-5x6-photo-RD3...

 

It's kind of in the grey area because that lower case r could pass for an r or an l. There's no cursive capital E as you can see. But there are the two O's.

 

Authentic examples, sometimes, but not always, have what look like two capital cursive S's. The one in Charlton being smaller than the one in Heston. You can see it in some of the examples posted on the first page of this study.

 

I'd say in conclusion that the "Chall" is present most often in secretarials. Then the capital cursive "E" and then the two O's. It's one indicator for me. Another thing to look at can be what looks most like two lower case h's, they come after the O's I've mentioned in a lot of secretarials.

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli To Brick Hunter on August 24, 2011 at 4:41pm

Excellent.

 

There are a few other indicators as well. Not sure if they have been discussed in the 60 some pages...

 

* Secretarial - straight baseline. Real Heston has curved baseline with "ton" in Charlton that significantly drops down.

Permalink Reply by Mike Sibley on August 24, 2011 at 11:49am
Brick - yes I have had a much longer and closer look at #BTG2826 and I agree with you this does look secretarial.  Apologies as I should have looked closer first time before posting.  The 'h' in Charlton also doesn't look right.
Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter To Mike Sibley on August 24, 2011 at 3:25pm

Thanks for the expertise. I've read through this entire thread so I know you're a long and dedicated Heston collector, Mike. Heston is one of my favorite autographs as well. The look of these hasn't looked right to me so it might be an evolution of his autograph that I may not be as familiar with, such as the 90's and later on, they may also have been signed under various conditions that cause them to look a little off to me.

 

My concern is that it looks like #2765, 2826 and 2825 were signed at the same time, possibly the same pen and the photos they're on are very similar. But I think we can all agree that there's at least one secretarial out of the lot, most likely two, and the rest are harder to see.

 

I wish all the "Chall" signatures were out of the marketplace. They really devalue Heston's autograph and novices see those old PSA certs and think they're buying a genuine piece.

Permalink Reply by Kyle M. on September 2, 2011 at 1:53pm

These are still all over eBay.  Why is that?  They are not cheap either. I think the point has been proven here on AMLive. Here is one for $179.00 Buy It Now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Charlton-Heston-signed-photo-17-JSA-Cert-/3...

Permalink Reply by Herman Darvick To Kyle M. on September 2, 2011 at 3:08pm
Why are Hestons still all over eBay?  Why are there Autopen signatures of Presidents GW Bush, Clinton, GHW Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, and Kennedy on eBay which exactly match Autopen patterns published online? Autopen signatures, unlike forgeries, are factually not authentic and are not opinions. People buy these because the seller says they're authentic. If and when they decide to sell them off eBay, to a dealer (after all, they probably got a great buy and think they're making a huge profit), they run into trouble, but collectors who buy on eBay never find out about this.
Permalink Reply by Kyle M. To Herman Darvick on September 2, 2011 at 4:43pm

Same seller has this non-authentic Elizabeth Taylor signature. This example is all over the internet.  Its either a preprint or an autopen-- I can't remember.  its a 9/10 accroding to the seller:

 

You are bidding on a Elizabeth Taylor Autographed 8x10 photo.


Dame Elizabeth Rosemond Taylor, (born 27 February 1932), also known as Liz Taylor, is an Anglo-American actress. She is known for her acting skills and beauty, as well as her Hollywood lifestyle, including many marriages. Taylor is considered one of the great actresses of Hollywood's golden years, as well as a larger-than-life celebrity.

The American Film Institute named Taylor seventh on its Female Legends list.

 


Autograph is signed in Black Sharpie. 

I would rate this autograph at a minimum of 9/10 but will more likely be 10/10!! Bid with Confidence as this is guaranteed to be the REAL deal!!

This is an actual autograph and not a copy or a reprint!


Please see my other auctions for other fine autographed photos, cuts and sports cards.

Check out my ebay store for even more great sports related items including one of the largest selections of sports memorabilia in the world!! I have also added a huge line of sports and celebrity autographs.

Permalink Reply by Hitch1010 To Kyle M. on September 2, 2011 at 4:55pm

@Kyle, it looks like a collector is selling off his through the mail collection.  There are a lot of secretarial autographs in his 61 pages of listings.  This a typical Jerry Lewis.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jerry-Lewis-signed-photo-77-/360285955976?p...

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin To Hitch1010 on September 2, 2011 at 5:04pm

George,

Typical Jerry Lewis secretarial? 

Permalink Reply by Hitch1010 To Steve Cyrkin, Admin on September 2, 2011 at 5:15pm
Yes Steve.  Itisreal.com has a great study on Jerry Lewis.  He was never authentic thru-the-mail.
Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter To Kyle M. on September 2, 2011 at 3:36pm

I worry about this as well. At least they aren't selling like they used to but they still do sell.

 

I wish PSA would work in concert with eBay to remove these secretarials like Brandon Mysinger says GA does with Mike Baker's old certs.

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