Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jor-El on May 19, 2022 at 3:08am

The fuss was only in the autograph community, we're just a small part. Same goes for Dolly and Patterson, they didn't change either.

Sometimes you just never know, Patterson was autopen on President is Missing, good on Presidents Daughter and bad again on Run Rose Run. I think the publishers and record companies have often more to do with that than the artist.

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on May 19, 2022 at 4:44am

You know, after all this time, i never even bothered checking Patterson in Run Rose Run.. i immediately wrote it off since dolly was autopen. I need to research now but looking quickly, Patterson seems to be real

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Permalink Reply by Jor-El on May 19, 2022 at 5:01am

Maybe I dismissed it too quickly, but I saw one example where his autograph was only half on the page. Therefore I assumed it would have happened due to bad placement of the paper beneath the machine.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on May 19, 2022 at 6:49pm

I think the publishers and record companies have often more to do with that than the artist.

As the person who first sounded the alarm on "The President is Missing", on release day, I can tell you with almost no doubt that the machine that signed for Patterson was not set up or run by the same people who handled the machine that signed for Clinton.

The Pattersons were cookie-cutter, like the old school machines.

The Clintons were so advanced, with varying speeds, angles, and templates, that it took a while to reach the consensus that they were bad too.

They were not both doing of the publisher, because, if they were, they would've made the Pattersons look a lot more like the Clintons & not just the same 4 signatures over and over.

I firmly believe that the publishers generally send the pages or books to be signed & whatever happens to them happens to them, then they're returned.

There are some cases where the publishers might be involved, and the Dolly books being signed on the title page, rather than a tip-in like most books that are signed before being distributed, could well be one one of them.

But in general, I have little doubt that, for the most part, it falls on the signer to decide how they want to handle the pages, not the publisher. There's too much consistency within signers & too much variation within publishers to be any different.

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Permalink Reply by slappy 8955 on May 19, 2022 at 7:14pm

Are the Clinton Patterson books no good?   I got one, never really followed the thread about it.

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on May 19, 2022 at 7:43pm

Do you have the President is Missing? Or The Presidents Daughter? I have 2 of the Presidents Daughter and they are good. Ive read the issue is with The President is Missing 

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Permalink Reply by slappy 8955 on May 19, 2022 at 7:48pm

I'll double check.   Not sure without looking.   It's the presidents something.  I remember thinking it didn't at all look autopenned.  

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on May 19, 2022 at 11:00pm

On "The President is Missing", the Patterson is obviously and clearly autopenned, unless you got one from an in-store signing.

The Clintons don't look autopenned, because automated signing/handwriting machines have come a looooooooong way from the machines we used to know (which was my point--they were far more advanced than the Pattersons), but they're just as real as the Pattersons.

Honestly, I never saw an actual match on a single Clinton signature on "The President is Missing", which did have me thinking, at first, that the Clinton might be good, but that's how advanced the technology is.

I can't speak for "The President's Daughter", as I lost the first gamble and didn't bother going back.

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Permalink Reply by JK on May 20, 2022 at 1:11am

If you never saw an actual match on the Clinton signatures then how do you know they're autopen?

(P S. - in the second book they wrote, the signatures were real).

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on May 20, 2022 at 1:10pm

I find the juxtaposition between those two points to be very intriguing.

To answer your question, the complete lack of any signs of varying pressure, combined with the opinions of people far more skilled than myself.

The days of identifying autopens by duplicates is, for those who can afford good, top-of-the-line machines, gone.

If that's what you limit your analysis to, you're going to end up with more and more of them, as the old machines are phased out and replaced by the new ones.

It's no longer a mechanical arm that holds a marker at a 90 degree angle and churns out signature after identical signature.

They can store multiple templates & sign with an adjustable speed & angle. There are even ways to mechanically adjust the paper as it signs so that letters will connect differently.

When they figure out how to get the arm to adjust the pressure as it signs, we'll all be hosed, though my personal philosophy is that there's little difference between a fake signature that everyone agrees is real & a real signature that everyone agrees is real. The signatures won't be any more real than they are now, but we'll all think they are, so it'll even itself out.

Permalink Reply by JK on May 20, 2022 at 1:50pm

OK, I tnink I understand you. If they match, they're autopen.  If they don't match, they're still autopen. 

Under those conditions I'm not sure why anyone would collect autographs. 

The autopen machine was not invented specifically to fool autograph collectors. Certain operators of the machines try to do that by using varying templates and techniques.  As technology and utilization improve, so must our vigilance.

If you are going to question the conventional wisdom on "The President's Daughter" it really would be helpful to have actual evidence rather than sweeping hypothetical postulations.

Permalink Reply by Jor-El on May 20, 2022 at 2:25pm

I agree with JK.
Given the current state of technology and AI a machine like that could hypothetically exist, but it would be very expensive to develop and produce. I don't see it making sense economically. Most of the market for these machine are officials who use it to automate the signing process. The reason they need it to look 'signed' compared to a straight copy is that's not easy to recreate without the machine (only people with access and authorization can use it, making the autograph legitimate). They're not worried about hiding the fact they are using a machine.

Even among collectors there's not much reason to use a more advanced method. Most buyers are fans who don't even know what an autopen is and if you try to educate them they refuse to believe you.

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