Authenticity is Everything
Billie Holiday Autograph
I purchased this 78 vinyl record purportedly signed by Billie Holiday from an RACC trusted seller. I recently submitted the item to JSA for authentication, and unfortunately it did not pass.
I originally submitted it in person at a show here in CA a few weeks ago, and I was disappointed by how carelessly the item was handled during intake. When I received it back, there were fingerprints all over it. I contacted JSA immediately to report the condition, and they did expedite the review process.
Yesterday I received their letter confirming that the autograph did not pass authentication. I’m extremely disappointed and unsure what my next step should be, or if anyone here might be able to offer advice.
Prior to purchasing the item, I did my research and examined the signature characteristics—such as the looping of “Billie” and the shape of the “H” in “Holiday.” However, upon further inspection, the signature appears to have been written in ballpoint pen. Additionally, the Blue Ace label is known to be a bootleg label, and this particular pressing seems to have been released slightly before the time of her passing.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ryan W
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I’ve shown you: the ink is period-correct, the tail on the ‘y’ is explained by the label. Roger authenticated it, and he doesn’t pass signatures lightly. Your 30 years of ‘learning from fakes’ does not override the judgment of a professional authenticator.
You’re nitpicking minor variations while ignoring everything that proves authenticity. Those so-called ‘rules’ you cling to don’t apply in real-world conditions—different surfaces, pen angles, and spacing affect execution. What you’re calling abnormal is completely consistent with an in-the-moment signature on a record label.
Your experience buying fakes somehow doesn’t make you an authority on authenticating Holiday autographs. This signature is real, and nothing you’ve said changes that.
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Permalink Reply by michelle
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what does seem strange in this story is that the seller, an experienced ebay seller should price it that low if he thought it was genuine, bearing in mind the high prices of many of his other items
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Just because a seller prices something low doesn’t mean it’s not genuine—it often means they’re unaware of its full value or just want a quick sale. Why would this one item be fake while everything else he sells, which is priced more in line with expectations, is authentic? Not to mention the serious repercussions of knowingly selling a bad item.
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Permalink Reply by JK
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BTW, did the seller ever get back you after your initial complaint and charge-back attempt? If not, how reputable is he?
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It's not irrelevant at all when you are using his supposed reputation to support your presumption of authenticity.
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JK, of course it’s irrelevant. Why would I care whether the seller responded? Did it occur to you he may have known it was authentic all along and was upset about the chargeback.
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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva
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The point I was making about the fakes I've bought is just that I know how hard it can be to accept when people - whether professionals or fellow collectors - tell you that they don't think the autograph you've bought is real. I once spent countless hours trying to convince myself that a Lennon I'd bought was real when people on this forum told me it wasn't. Your case is different in that you've also gone to a couple of authenticators.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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I strongly believe that Ryan's Billie is genuine.
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That's fine. I cannot see it myself but that's been clear for quite some time and these things can't be proved one way or the other, unless there is some evidence that cannot be refuted (e.g. the autograph is on something that didn't exist when the autograph is supposed to have been obtained).
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Pug,
Post your comparisons of the 20 RR examples you are referring to.
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I actually looked at all of them and was being a bit cautious when I mentioned 20. There are probably nearer to 50. I'm not enough of a technical wizard to copy them all over, at least not within a realistic time frame.
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