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autograph inconsistencies

ok... so while obtaining autographs at this weekend's Memorial tournament in Columbus, Oh... i noticed something. it's actually something quite common in today's autograph market.

inconsistencies of a celebrity's autograph. many actors/actresses/rock stars/ athletes etc. have a different autograph when it comes to crowds then when it comes to a one on one situation or even to a sit down signing situation. and some celebs (especially sports athletes who get paid for their signing services) change their autograph entirely for different times in either their career or whether they are being paid for their signature. I've personally seen it all and shown some examples across this forum. I've even shared the story of Chad Henne who actually said to a friend of mine who was doing a private signing where he purposely has a different autograph for free than he does for pay. I can show you where Eddie Vedder has changed his signature wildly 4 times during his career.

some stars autographs just have slight differences just because they have signed so much over the years that it usually just becomes a quicker version of their old signature. but what happens when a celeb is basically changing his autograph minute by minute. not necessarily a wholesale change, just subtle differences.

my case here... Rory Mcilroy. 2011 U.S. Open winner. i had heard that he signs pin flags horribly. so i purposely bought a Memorial Tournament flag to see this myself. And he did just that. I followed Rory for 3 holes (until i was completely out of items for him to sign.) and i watched him sign just about anything. photos, golf balls, pin flags, index cards, magazines, programs, scorecards, hats etc. and he did. if you were a little kid, you got the best autograph from him (i had no little kids and am not one either, so i didn't get the best possible autograph). but i did see him take a little bit more time on everything else and on pin flags, his autograph looks purposely atrocious.

the three i'm going to show you are 2 photos and a close up of the pin flag signature as well. i got all three of them within a half an hour. the crowd was about the same with all of them.

so now, you tell me... if i send in all 3 to PSA DNA...do they pass the 2 photos AND the pin flag? and look, they all have slight differences to a very wild difference in the flag (where it barely looks anywhere near the same.)

do you have any instances to share where the autograph has changed either purposely, or just in general... i'm hoping to show how and when and why celebs change their signatures... is it just circumstance?

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Permalink Reply by Mike P on June 5, 2012 at 12:09pm

Hey, I have another person to add to this list. His name is Paolo Maldini, an Italian football legend and he signs pretty different in person than he does at a paid private signing. Is it due to the signing environment? Probably, but nevertheless they are different.

heres mine in person: paid private signing: Paolo_Maldini_Signed_Italy_Shirt_big

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Permalink Reply by Mike P on June 5, 2012 at 12:23pm

Very true. I've seen so many athletes do this as well. But then you have athletes like Ahmad Bradshaw, Pete Rose, and Kaka who sign the same way whether it be in person or private signing. Nevertheless, it can make it easier/more difficult to determine authenticity of an autograph. If an athlete has so many variations to their signature (like MJ did for yourself) it becomes nearly impossible to decide on authenticity of the piece unless you get it in person yourself so YOU have seen it been signed; therefore no question in your mind. But if athletes like Kaka and Pete Rose have a generally typical signature regardless of the environment in which they sign, it makes it easier to weed out the bad forgery attempts. Very interesting topic.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on June 5, 2012 at 4:24pm

James Hetfield of Metallica had a large signature shift around 2003. Before and during the "Jaymz" one (which goes as far back as the mid 90s) he signed guitar certificates of authenticity and formal documents with a more traditional looking signature. I can't find one online right now.

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Permalink Reply by W.W. Dunbar on June 5, 2012 at 5:21pm

I went to an autograph authentication workshop a few years ago. The instructor, Al Wiittnebert, said there are 4 ways a person can sign their name:

Sitting, Standing, Sober, or Drunk

If you think about it, there are numerous other combinations. Is the signer in good health, or poor health? Are they young, or are they old? Are they in a good mood, or in a rotten mood? Are they in a hurry, or do they have all the time in the world to sign their name?

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Permalink Reply by JXE on June 16, 2012 at 7:50pm

Could someone please verify this for me?

Joey Lauren Adams just did a convention, and these two photos are examples of the kinds of signatures that came out:

Now, Autograph World has been selling a batch of autographs over the past week, and the signatures look like this:

While Autograph World does get photos at conventions (I've seen them myself at the Chiller Theatre in NJ), the great majority of their photos come from free signings in person at press events/premieres/etc. Is it likely that she just has two types of signatures-- a neater nicer one when she is charging and then a less detailed, different one when she signs outside of the convention circuit? There are very few common features between the two convention ones up top and the AW one on the bottom. What do you think?

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Permalink Reply by Rich on June 17, 2012 at 9:07am

Looks like she was at the May-Hem convention, a horror con in Orlando.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on June 17, 2012 at 12:14pm

How unusual because I thought Autograph World was very reliable. Is it likely that their whole batch is bad? What do you think happened? Here are some others that they're currently offering:

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Permalink Reply by JXE on June 17, 2012 at 1:40pm

I totally agree with what you are saying. If you try your damndest to find similarities, it would be the "y" that has some resemblance to con signatures. Otherwise, there's nothing similar. I'm just trying to figure how this could happen with AW. They have a bunch. Usually they're timed with appearances and cons. These were obviously not gotten at the same con. Unless they caught her outside or at another event and she was just real sloppy because she decided to differentiate between a con signature that people pay for and a signature she signs fast and in bulk on the street.

With that said, if it wasn't AW, I wouldn't even give it a second look. The things they sell for much, much more are always spot on. I can 't figure out what's happening with these.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on June 17, 2012 at 2:03pm

Might not be the worst idea to bring it up to AW. They've always come across as an excellent business to me. Maybe they could provide insight into what we're seeing here.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on June 18, 2012 at 5:47am

I gave it a shot and sent a very polite email about it. I actually blind bought one of these in a recent AW catalog. This was before a friend from Florida sent me one from the con. AW got back to me and said she signed it at May-Hem. I didn't bring up May-Hem at all in my question.

So, is it possible that she demonstrated such a dramatic shift in signature over the course of the weekend? If this is real, the photos were likely provided by AW because she did not offer those ones, and she likely charged them less to sign a significant number of photos. Do you think she just rushed them because they wanted so many? I know something like this is very rare. I only saw it myself once with Nick Castle at Monster Mania in NJ. I think it's more likely with people who just don't do a lot of signing and haven't developed or have had to maintain a flashy showbiz signature at the current time of signing.

Or is it even more worrisome, and they have an agent in Florida that is not trustworthy? What do you think?

In other news, I found this from an AW listing in 2006 that shares some similarities with the original photo in question (the Chasing Amy poster):

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Permalink Reply by JXE on June 18, 2012 at 7:21am

They followed up with me and said that they did not attend the event; that it was an associate who did the exchange for them. With that said, they said they will investigate further.They aren't being abrupt with me; I'm just trying to be careful with the info I pass on in a public forum because I really do believe they'll investigate it. IMO they are the best "big box" autograph shop, and it's only natural that there could sometimes be mistakes with what they take in with some suppliers being less than truthful. I'll report what I hear.

Permalink Reply by georgejoey747 on August 7, 2012 at 1:28pm