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Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)

This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread. 

That thread; proposed;

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.  

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

 

and it seems to have merit.   However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean.  There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.

Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.

Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar.  I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book.  Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.  

Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications;  ... indisputable work.   It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.

I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso.  It is thru the posting of perceived  hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory.   I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos. 

I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent.   it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory.   I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.

 

6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;

R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).

R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item.  The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos.  Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible.  If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on July 4, 2012 at 10:37am

One huge difference between the authentic Heston signature and the secretarial Heston signature is the difference between "Char" and Chall," but when you get to know his signature, you understand that there are many, many other breaks between the authentic and secretarial. It's certainly not the same signature just with an "r" that looks like an "l."

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on July 4, 2012 at 11:55am
Righto. I focused initially on Char vs Chall because to sell the theory I knew a plainly obvious tell was required. Subtle doesn't sell as Rolf learned.

Once you separate the Chars and Challs and line them up, it's plain to see two different hands were at work. Numerous differences including baseline, formation, flow, pressure, etc.
Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on July 7, 2012 at 8:52am

Here is a Heston to blow your mind. :-)  

And here is a pic of Heston signing this exact photo:

Note that the h in Charlton does not have the extra "hitch" at the beginning.

Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on July 17, 2012 at 10:09am

I was scanning through worthpoint for something and I found these. "Char" Charlton Heston forgeries from 2009. The seller in each of the listings states:

"is a signed 8x10 photo pictured. I bought these all signed at past Chiller Theatre shows in New Jersey fron 2 reputable dealers. I'm now selling these off cheap to help my fellow collectors. Each photo will come with a Certificate Of Authenticity from me and my company SG Authentics."

Here the actual items are:

--

Is it my imagination or do they share some similarities with the recent forgeries we found by roger-wright2 and his various other accounts.

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on July 17, 2012 at 11:23am
Close, but hard to say if it is the same hand.

By the way, I sent a message to roger-wright2 asking the source of his Heston autographs. Still awaiting a response.

He also has had some ghastly Jimmy Stewarts as well.
Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on July 17, 2012 at 3:06pm

I don't know whether they were signed by the same hand, but the exaggerated ending seems to be close enough that there could be some connection.

Both roger-wright2 and gerryzu are currently selling a lot of forgeries. I messaged eBay about them once, but those never seem to go anywhere. I can't even deal with trying to message sellers anymore. 

Permalink Reply by DB on July 17, 2012 at 5:21pm

Speaking of Worthpoint, I found this (most likely from) autograph world that sold 11/2010 on ebay.  If the owner ever comes across this thread they ought to contact bob or jd for a refund.

ALL Photos are of the Exact SIGNED Planet of the Apes Photo @ Auction
Years ago I had purchaed this Signed Photo from a U.A.C.C. Autograph Dealer J.D. Bardwell   PLANET OF THE APES "KISS" Color Photo SIGNED
by 'Taylor' and 'Dr. Zira' themselves Charlton HESTON & Kim HUNTER easures: 8" wide & just under 10" tall/

Permalink Reply by DB on July 17, 2012 at 12:08pm

Speaking of Hands - perhaps the source of one of the secretarial styles can now be linked;

Movie Star. Background: I purchased around forty scenes on 35 mm negatives, back around 1984. This was from a former mail order company out of Kansas City. My request was for memorable movie scenes or poses depicting the co-stars. I then proceeded to have 8x10 negatives and several prints of each made up, at a photo lab in Hollywood, Calif. Herewith offering was personally received autographed, shortly thereafter. This was via the mail route, to his home address in Beverly Hills. Some actors often send out secretarials back then (Newman, Rooney, Taylor, Young etc.). But those were the exceptions, and tossed out by myself long ago.

 

Permalink Reply by DB on July 17, 2012 at 12:57pm

I sometimes continue to shake my head in disbelief with PSA certs on Heston.  This one has me heading for the excedrin...  Is this the 2 R or 1 eiffel and 2 L's exemplar?

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on July 17, 2012 at 1:33pm
That is the secretary.
Permalink Reply by Lou reves on July 17, 2012 at 1:05pm

At least Todd will refund the money unlike PSA!

Permalink Reply by DB on July 17, 2012 at 1:11pm

If it is one of his....  although recall on one later one the debate and the description was merely changed to wording that included secretarial and was still sold (or at least it appeared to be)

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