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Permalink Reply by elrob on November 30, 2021 at 7:31pm

hi i have had to try and sell my memorabilia due to covid hitting my family hard  the problem i had was that they are all fakes bought from grays on ;line and from coolworld i noticed your discussion and that you have been stung by these crooks too i have had them proudly hanging on my wall for years lol what a goose anyway how did you guys end up 

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Permalink Reply by melissa o'rourke on September 15, 2012 at 4:38pm

Well i have now been threatened with legal actions by the said persd on the COA above if i don't provide 2 documents stating that my guitar autographs are fake and that he also want's thier credentials and what accreditation they have in regards to the autograph field! Geoff Pope states that he will be forwarding my emails of demand to his QC and then he went on to tell me he knows this buisness inside and out and especially the LAWS surrounding this industry, Coincidently my email address and facebook account linked to the same address i emailed him from has been hacked severly and accounts disabled should i be foolish to think the 2 are related, I have done an Australian buisness search and the said buisness ANGEL FRAMING does not exist at this point i am wondering if i still have to provide proof that my autographs are a forgery or wether i should just proove the buisness name on the COA doesnt exist and that might be enough to bring them down...GRAYS & FORGERS  P.S i rang the next door neighbours of thier apparent shop in Taren Point NSW and they havn't been at the address for a few years and they told me a few other people had called about the same enquiries so i am clearly not the only person ANGEL FRAMING & GRAYS have ripped off!! Any suggestion on what to do would be greatly appreciated.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on September 15, 2012 at 4:57pm

Threatened with legal action for what, Melissa? For posting things on this site and getting opinions on authenticity? For telling Grays that you think or were told they're forgeries? Get the specific offense they claim you've committed. People like these always threaten, but can't afford to really go to court. You and other victims need to band together and hire one law firm to represent you.

And consider immediately filing a report with Trading Standards or whatever the appropriate law enforcement agencies are in the UK.

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Permalink Reply by melissa o'rourke on September 15, 2012 at 5:44pm

hi Steve,  I emailed Geoff and told him that i want a refund as i believed the autographs were fake and that i had been ripped off, Geoff replied that just because some moran told me my autographs were fake it does not mean they are and he stands behind his product 100%, I then sent Geoff another email stating that there was forums dedicated to exposing the frauds in the autograph industry and that i was seeking help from people who had been through similar scenarios and that i have now been told by 6 people the autographs are fake, Also that i was seeking out an "expert" to have the autographs examined i then told him that maybe he should google fake autographs and finaly i told him I WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!

Geoff replied with I had no right to accuse him of selling fakes and that he wanted all people involved details,credentials,etc as he will pass it all along to his QC, He also claimed i threatened him ( i only demanded my money and explained my intent to expose the fraud) He went on to say that  i cannot make these unfounded claims then he signed sealed delivered it with a footnote saying that if i didn't reply with these details that no further correspondence would be entered into!!  i am a little confused also as to why he is threatening legal action he does not at all make it clear.

Thankyou Steve, I have contacted the ACCC and are almost at mediation process with the auction house but as far as the vendor goes i don't even have his REAL name everything i have on him is all fabricted so that makes it difficult(I do have his IP address though!!), I am however hoping to gather enough information that possibly would be interesting to the fraud squad in melbourne and i am still pushing hard to get a story on one of our a current affairs programs that way we can make a public appeal for other victims to come forward hence building a class action as you suggested.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on September 15, 2012 at 9:25pm

Hi Melissa,

Thanks for filling me in. He has no grounds to sue you, even if the autographs were genuine. I need to reread everything you've written about this, to find out what Gray's told you. If you bought it from them I think that's whom your claim is with.

Keep brave, stand tall and determined, and don't let these people get away with this. We'll all work together.

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Permalink Reply by melissa o'rourke on September 16, 2012 at 3:36pm

Thanks Steve, Grays are giving me the run around of course but today we present them with the idea that i am not trying to proove my guitar autographs are fake that i want them to entertain the idea that the buisness ANGEL FRAMING does not exist on Australias buisness registry and to trade under a buisness name you must be registered, If i can proove that the buisness on the COA is fake then the rest is history, I will not stop at that though even if i get my money, i am disgusted to say the least at how criminal forgers can continually get away with fraud and theft (stealing my money lol)  I am not going to let Grays or the forger get away with this The money lost is not the point anymore ...My pride is at stake!! I am by far not the most intellegent person but i am one of the most determined EVER to roam this planet! I will not give up.

Without this amazing website full of very clever,helpful,informative and  interesting people I would be lost.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Baker on September 15, 2012 at 11:10pm

Mellisa.

we have nothing to worry about, we have done nothing wrong... we are seeking people that are in a similar situation with a view to retrieving all costs associated with these transactions, including legal costs if that is needed.

I have been investigating the best course of action, and it seems that the laws in Australia are not keeping up with the internet, and the internet is a bit of a wild west environment, but there are courses of action to be taken as the transactions occured in australia, and do not cross international borders... but in my case, do cross state borders.

At the moment, it seems that the course of action I need to take is to compile evidence and get some forensic examination and certification to prove that these items are fakes, then go through a process with Graysonline to retrieve moneys, they are likely to concede these, and offer a refund, but (as in what I have seen so far), they will NEVER concede that the items are fake, or the whole thing comes to an end.

If they refuse to refund, then I can take a case to the Fraud Squad in my state, who will then pass on evidence to the NSW fraud squad.

I have filed a report with the ACCC, But they have said that they will issue alerts on the scamwatch site, but have no ability to prosecute.

The dept. of media content have a similar position, only even weaker.

Crime Stoppers may be an avenue, but this is not to be utilised by a VICTIM of the crime, only if you are aware of a crime that you are not a victim too.  !!!

so your friend who is threatening legal action, is probably very aware of the laws, and this is why they can continue to openly rip people off.

His threats of him having a QC  at his disposal, is absolutely laughable, and is designed to put the frighteners on you.  A lawyer is one thing... A QC is an entirely different matter. BLUFF and BLUSTER.  if they were serious, then they would take this website to court, as they threatened to, but then the roles are reversed, and those legal costs are on their shoulders, on a case they would lose quite emphatically! ....  no no... they are relying on the fact that the costs of taking THEM to court would be inhibitive on an individual like us...they will not take anyone of us to court, as we have not acted unreasonably, they have been selling fakes, and the costs would be theirs to bear.

We need to be very patient, and deliberate in building our case. We need the assistance of proffesional authenticators to do a mass load of items, hopefully at a discount rate.

we need to build this group to a significant number, then work together to bring these criminals to their knees... no half measures, no compromise, everything they have got, and with any luck, some of their freedom in jail.

Individually we have little hope, together with good numbers, we will destroy them... and even get laws changed or implemented.... but only with significant numbers.

politicians, police, media, ... they are all influenced by numbers.

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Permalink Reply by melissa o'rourke on September 18, 2012 at 5:36pm

Hi again Paul,

All i can say is I am glad you are on my side you are a very determined and clever man, I can clearly see they have met thier match lol, I will do whatever is asked of me to help build this case with you, I have full faith that thier crimes will be exposed and you will be the man to achieve this, The only place for criminals like this is jail i whole heartedly agree.

The plot just keeps thickening, I was casually floating through grays online this morning and have uncovered another lot of probable fakes by

 musiclegendshttp://www.graysonline.com/sale/2301724/memorabilia/hand-signed-mus...,   

coolworld http://www.graysonline.com/sale/2301727/memorabilia/rare-memorabili...  and what i also believe is angel framing but they have been careful not to offer any COA this time! however the details of the sale are identiclal and the autographs on my guitar have the same style of handwritting as all the memorabillia autographed  listed in this sale http://www.graysonline.com/sale/3002141/memorabilia/unreserved-hand...

After sitting here for over a week wondering why the company name coolworld rang a bell i realised why only this morning!  not only was i ripped off by Angel framing and Grays but that my autographed SLASH picture hanging in the lounge that  came with a COA was from Coolworld i checked in the file i keep these in and yep you bet ya My signed Slash photo was from Coolworld, Fool me once shame on you but fool me twice  shame on me :( well unfortunatley  i now have 2 pieces of interest to the case for you Paul.

I have peen printing out all sales and products that  grays list from the 3 companies mentioned above and already i could fill a phone book..... everything in mass numbers :)  It will make it hard for police to ignore when they see the grand scale of this criminal activity, of course this is only one tiny piece of the puzzle but i hope it all helps in some small way, Grays needs to be held accountable.

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Permalink Reply by Frank harding on September 18, 2012 at 7:08pm

Hi

Please take a look at the current Fleetwood Mac items on Graysonline being advertised by Cool World Collectables. The guitar has , in my opinion fake signatures of Mick Fleetwood, John McVie and Lindsey Buckingham. On the last piece of memorabilia Live London 68 the Band consisted of John, Mick, Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer. Lindsey  did not join until 1974, so why does Live London 68 have Lindsey's signature on it?

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Permalink Reply by melissa o'rourke on September 19, 2012 at 2:19pm

Hi Frank,

Welcome to the discussion, Thankyou for helping out this may just be 1 of the biggest steps forward so far, Grays have hidden behind red tape and non exisistant internet auction laws for way too long, i wonder how many other artists warnermusic has signed to them that may have also been forged on grays website hopefully this opens up a can of worms.

the forgers cannot get anything past a die hard fan; good spot about Lindsey's autograph not possibly being real until at least he joined the band in 74' lol, The forgers go to so much trouble to set up fake names and accounts, addresses and so forth but yet they keep making these stupid mistakes... it is almost laughable!

P.S I LOVE THE MAC TOO Stevie Nicks is a goddess.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on September 19, 2012 at 3:06pm

+1. I could listen to Rhiannon for days on end.

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Permalink Reply by melissa o'rourke on September 19, 2012 at 3:34pm

Rhiannon is by far my favourite song ever by The Mac, Sara comes a very close second :) hahahaha i think i just worked out what to name my next 2 budgies  Rhiannon & Sara.

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