Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 5, 2012 at 9:46am

Has AFTAL issued a recent response? I only know of the one in August or Sept.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on December 5, 2012 at 10:18am

Steve

We were told last month of an impending reply, Jason even said t was imminent

As Ive said and I will repeat, this is just gonna go away , too much money is riding on any statement and it will be AFTALS word against Rogers.

A shame and really a disgrace

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 5, 2012 at 10:32am

Gary,

I think you may be surprised. I heard that AFTAL is recruiting new board members.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on December 5, 2012 at 11:16am

Steve

I wish they would announce this !

I tell you again , and the forum, if anyone ever mentions to me they purchased a Michael Jackson autograph from anywhere on this planet, I will advise them of the problems raised on Authenticity by Roger. I will also advise them of the Non response from AFTAL

I will be advising them to seek Full Authentification of their item

I will not allow any kind of cover up regarding Authenticity of any item EVER !

It will be best for AFTAL to make their statement either way

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on December 5, 2012 at 11:57am

Gary, 

    That's VERY encouraging to hear.  Do you think that there are other autographs that collectors should be aware of?  Autographs of other big name personalities which have similar concern?  Or, is it still just limited to Jackson & McCartney?

    The "no response" doesn't surprise me in the least.  I'm sure that others were holding out hope though. Hopefully, The delayed response to the questionable items has good reason.

 

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Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on December 5, 2012 at 2:10pm

Brandon,

                  You are very perceptive. All will be revealed in due course have no fear. I have been AFTAL's greatest critic in recent months but can assure those who have a positive interest and not a morbid desire to see something fail miserably that the Phoenix will arise from the ashes. In the meantime whilst the problems of the past are ironed out I give you my word that the truth, the whole truth will be made available and everyone will be able to move on from this and anyone who wishes to deride can get over it. Rome wasn't built in a day and though certain people may wish for a speedy ' fix ' it won't happen because there is a lot to put right. Patience will reap its own reward.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on December 5, 2012 at 2:43pm

Brandon, if you re read some of the comments on here ,the forum has listed other names not just McCartney and Jackson, the forum has been talking of items distributed by Adrian including EVERYONE, all A list music and Film etc.

Im not getting into naming any other names but lets see what AFTAL say when they do say / if they will say

I will then state for the record what I know...

 I will not let this just go away and be forgotten in the UK, I will enlighten everyone about the doubts on the above named artists

Before anyone complains at me, I will state that Im doing no wrong.

Im stating that questions have been raised on items signed by McCartney and Jackson and the owners of anything signed by them and obtained since 2006 should be aware of doubts regarding Authenticity

Regarding the late AFTAL response, I really am suprised at this. I really dont know what to say but Im actually not suprised

 

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Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on December 5, 2012 at 11:57pm

Gary,

          We have had our differences in the past but feel sure that we both want the same thing, which is the eradication of fakes and forgers from the Industry. This is a forum and by the very nature of its name suggests that it is a place where like minded people can debate about subjects which they are concerned about or interested in.

I have been critical on this forum about the running of AFTAL but feel I had more right to be critical than you who is not a member. AFTAL only owes something to its members who pay an annual membership fee. I don't feel that you have a right to come onto a forum such as this demanding ' I want this ' from an organisation that you have no time for or wish to contribute to. You are a collector who makes his living doing another full time job and there are people like myself who make a full time living from selling autographs who have been financially damaged by what has occurred, and have had to take a long hard look at what the future holds if any. You won't get any statement from AFTAL for a while purely and simply because there is no Board in existence to address the issues. It would have been so easy and cowardly to have disbanded the organisation altogether and nobody would be any the wiser. However there are still committed individuals who feel that the Autograph Industry in the U.K. is better with an AFTAL organisation than without it or there would be nobody to take on the forgers at all. I don't know everything but what I can tell you is that a steering committee is being set up from people within the Industry who care deeply about all aspects of the business to guide the ship out of muddy waters. I remind you and others once again that these people are not paid to do this and most unlike yourself do not have the luxury of a full time wage coming in from other employment. This is a busy time of year so it is difficult for the new committee to meet and discuss the way forward properly and having learned from past mistakes does not intend to make any knee jerk judgements to satisfy non AFTAL members. The intention is to have a democratic election in the New Year whereby all members will be asked to vote who they would like to see on the new Board. Might I suggest that as you are always quite vociferous about what you think ought to be done and as you clearly know more than you are divulging to this forum that you would be an asset to the AFTAL board if you made your skills available ? That way you could have a say in doing what it is you have been suggesting they do for some time ?

Perhaps on a darker note the ramifications of what has transpired from a legal aspect hasn't been very helpful. Whilst appreciating that everyone wants to know the whole story of what has taken place over the past 3 months you are going to have to wait a while longer but rest assured there will be no Watergate and all will be revealed once things are sorted. One thing I would like to stress to all readers of the forum. It is not helpful to state in writing that any autograph is definitely a fake unless you can prove it in a court of law. Whether we like it or not the law does provide certain protections to both sides and unless categoric proof can be provided you can leave yourself wide open to further litigation for slander or defamation of character. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and perhaps it would be prudent to discuss certain aspects ' off forum ' rather than airing dirty washing in public ?

So Gary rather than being not surprised about what AFTAL aren't doing, why not put youself up for election and work unpaid for the benefit of others and really make a change, surely that has to be the way forward ?

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on December 6, 2012 at 1:45am

I agree on some points, but others i think you might be off. I dont think the board only owes something to its members that pay.

That would be correct if all the buying and selling was going on specifically between AFTAL members, but if members have any plans on selling to the outside public then their is a big problem. AFTAL, overseas is a large brand name, and autograph collectors their look toward it to provide some assurance in legitimate autograph collecting.

If outsiders and non members dont have any say as to the organization and dont owe anything to them, then the organization will go bankrupt pretty quick. The members definetly have more say, but a huge portion of the success or failure of AFTAL will be from its nonmembers.

If non members arent owed anything than surely AFTAL members arent owed anything, and by that i mean payment for choosing a dealer with an AFTAL brand attached.

Im not getting into your business with Gary, but all potential customers of AFTAL seemingly would play a crucial role in its success and thus are owed something. That something being fighting for the utmost in authenticity, and reporting the truth. Even if its bad, and even if its about their own members. And i think that everyone has the same right to be mad or upset as anyone else. ITs autographs and we are all in it for authenticity.

And we all should have the opportunity and voice to speak concerns and ask for things of an organization who relies on outside members to keep it afloat. Customers look towards the brand AFTAL and the dealers attached to have a superior product with the utmost of authenticity. Now that this scandal has broke and it seems new members and a new direction are in order. The AFTAL board would seemingly love to hear the concerns and comments of its potential customers, and their dealers customers. If they know what the common public wants then they can design an optimal plan. 

So while im sure its harder to swallow this being an AFTAL member, just imagine the customers who looked towards the AFTAL brand as safe, and thus bought from a dealer, and may now find out that their MJ's or McCartneys arent real. Im sure they are just as furious.

In my opinion if AFTAL is going to succeed its going to have to start listening to everyones concerns and then try and make the best structurally sound plan. Not only its members, but also its potential customers. If that happened, an organization would be created that would stand above any present organization, and be far better than the TPA's of today.

Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on December 6, 2012 at 8:14am

In response to Carl's reply - yes you are correct in saying that other than AFTAL members have a right to know that the organisation is being run correctly and that AFTAL Dealers can be trusted. What I meant to say was that as there is currently No Board at all I don't see there is anything to be gained by demanding answers and the constant sniping doesn't help at all.

However I can confirm that this is an Official Statement from AFTAL and I have been given clearance to make it.

The only surviving member of the old Board who is willing to address all of the problems caused by the recent events regarding the Michael Jackson autographs is Garry King. On a personal note Garry has taken so much criticism by people who don't know him and how dedicated he is in the fight to eradicate forgeries, and the very fact that he is determined to put right mistakes made by the now defunct Board deserves congratulations for his resilience. He has approached a number of Dealers here in the U.K. and invited them to form an interim Steering Committee and this now comprises of :- Garry King, Richard Bristow, Andy Hemington, Mark Honeyball, Bob McCluskey, Ken Mills and Jason Thanos.

Some if not most of the names may not be well known in the U.S.A but this is now a strong collection of dedicated Dealers with an enormous wealth of experience in different fields. We are in the throes of arranging an emergency meeting although this is a difficult time with the run up to the Christmas Holidays. All of the results of the recent events will be discussed and for some of us this will be the first time we have had a chance to see things at first hand. I personally will post a further statement on here once we have had chance to thoroughly discuss and digest the evidence and very optimistically plan the way forward.

So Carl with specific reference to your last paragraph we will listen to everyone's concerns, make the best stucturally sound plans for the future and reassure everybody that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated. The Steering Committee will sit for up to 6 months until such time as a democratic election of all the members will take place and positions on the Board will be properly decided. I and other members of the committee would welcome the wealth of knowledge and experience that collectors such as Gary Harvey have and would urge them to put themselves forward to sit on a future Board. Nobody can make a difference shouting from the sidelines. The rest of us are prepared to put our proverbial kit on and get stuck into the game.

It delights me to say that AFTAL not only has a bright future, it welcomes the challenges ahead and is determined to face them head on. I do hope that you will allow us some time to formulate things and whilst we know that far too much time has lapsed and everyone is impatient to know more, in the fullness of time all will be revealed.

If anyone has any specific concerns that they would wish me to raise at our first committee meeting then please feel free to e-mail me at kenmills@btinternet.com  

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 6, 2012 at 9:44am

Ken,

Thanks for your post last night. And, especially, thank you and AFTAL for your official statement from AFTAL an hour ago.

With all of the old board members but Garry King out of power, and Garry, Jason and you on the steering committee, I'm confident that AFTAL will emerge from this period stronger and better than it's ever been.

I'll think of this fondly as "The AFTAL Spring."

AFTAL has my support, and I encourage our members, collectors and dealers everywhere to give AFTAL the opportunity to make the organization everything most of its members wanted it to be in the first place.

Now that we have AFTAL's statement on the organization's rebuilding proess, I think it would be a good idea for AFTAL to talk a bit about the Michael Jacksons and McCartneys, so members have better understanding of your position and what's going on. Would that be possible?

Another suggestion: 

Start a blog (not a discussion) on AFTAL to talk about what's going on, and move it away from this discussion in which Autografica was headlined. While the discussion did a lot of good for the collecting community, Garry King was unfairly targeted. In fact, it's clear that this discussion was intentionally set up by members of the forgery industry to knock him down. It's time to put it to rest.

Just as important, AFTAL needs a place in its own name here that people can find easily to keep in touch with AFTAL and talk about things constructively.

What do you think?

Oh..and Carl: Thanks for the spot-on reply here last night. You really summed it up well.

Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on December 6, 2012 at 10:53am

Steve - your comments are most welcomed and appreciated. I can assure you that there are a few of us who still bear the battle scars from recent events and it has been probably the most stressful time I can remember in all the time I have been connected with autographs. You will probably have gleaned already that I disliked the silence from the old Board and you will find me extremely open and will inform you of all newsworthy information. I found Carl's response extremely fair and well balanced and if that is the standard of debate on here from now on then we can all benefit enormously. You must appreciate that I and the other new committee members haven't had chance to view the legal transcripts but once cleared after our meeting I will let you have details of Adrian's statement and that of his legal barrister. It may make quite uncomfortable reading for those on your side of the pond because I can reveal that Adrian has admitted to selling a number of the Michael Jackson autographs to dealers in the U.S.

With regard to the other committee members who some of you may not know I'm delighted to say that I have total respect for every one of them and am relishing working with them. Richard runs his own business as rbeesautographs, Bob McCluskey is a total gent who apart from working tirelessly to raise money for the Hillsborough support fund ( his team Liverpool F.C. suffered a massive tragedy when in 1989 96 of their fans were crushed to death at an FA Cup semi final game ) he absolutely loathes people who rip off the public with forgeries. Andy Hemington like myself has been an In Person collector and Dealer for more years than we care to remember and there is a great mutual respect rather than rivalry between us. Mark Honeyball is extremely experienced in Business as well as being a huge Bond enthusiast with lots of connections with the cast members, and finally we have Nana Mouskouri and Demis Roussos's lovechild Jason Thanos who though he can't speak a word of Greek never mind English is the goddam hardest working In Person collector I have ever come across. He is the only person I know who can remain upbeat after going two days without sleep but is hugely respected within the business. Me personally I have been an In Person collector since the early 1960's and a Full Time Dealer for 16 years.

As I have already said once I know the full details about all the Michael Jackson autographs I will divulge all to you. The McCartneys are another issue which will be discussed at our first meeting. We are all very busy people at a very busy time of year who are not getting paid to do this but take it from me some of us have only agreed to be on the committee because of the quality and integrity of the other members and we all take our responsibility very seriously ---- to be continued.

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