Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by 2si9gjw9em85g on July 11, 2013 at 9:24am

Most of the ones I point out are indeed hideous/putrid/horrific forgeries, which is why I call them as I see them. How else can you describe something that is 100% garbage created to rip off and deceive people of hard earned money?

Maybe by not using inflammatory verbiage to convey your point in your threads.  Apparently you feel that you must use that type of language or verbiage to get your point across.  Why?  I have no idea.  Maybe in the past you felt no one was reading your work/threads.  Thus, you started to escalate your word choices to gather an audience?  

Simply stating it is unauthentic in your opinion is really all that is needed and is the most factual representation of that opinion. Simplicity is the most effective form of communication.

 Common request, and myself and others refrain from sharing this info because the forgers will "fix" the problems.

 I have now seen that answer in a few threads.  Super duper for you.  However, it conveys no knowledge to people like me who are new to the hobby.  How are people like myself to learn what is good or bad when I am given no information?  The simple answer is we cannot.  Also, do you guys really think that the forgers in China/Britain/USA troll this site for information on how to improve their forgeries?  Just from the amounts of forgeries you guys post here daily from eBay and other sites it would appear they are too busy producing the objects they sell.  They aren’t attempting to make them better.  They are attempting to earn a living and by the numbers of forgeries you guys find it must be a full time profession.

"Professional" is a deceiving word. There are tons of "Professionals" who are scam artists, who authenticate anything. Myself and others do this on a voluntary basis, which means we are so passionate about this we spend our time helping others here. I consider myself very knowledgeable on several athlete's signatures, and I stick to those discussions.

I applaud you on your skill set.  No doubt it was formed through experience, and having others teach it to you.  I do find it interesting that I continually have certain “professional” authenticators being advised as have passed some magic bar by members of this site and others have been found to be lacking, I hope that is based upon an entire body of work.  I have seen in aa thread I started that Mr. Sipe's company was found lacking by members within this site.  What I found interesting is that eBay does not.  eBay allows three Companies that produce COA's on their platform.  The other two are JSA and PSA.  Am I to believe that a large Company like eBay did not do their due diligence and just picked those three Companies from midair to imply that they are OK?  Some how I doubt it.  There is too much at stake or it would seem to me.  Here is a link to eBay's authentication and grading services policy and to whom they allow COA's from on their platform:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/authentication.html#authentication

It appears that everyone gets it wrong from time to time and that the only way to know if an autograph is real is to be standing there when an object is signed.  That is what I am learning and are about the only rules that seems to be true in this hobby. 

The above paragraph is disappointing at best.

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Permalink Reply by Null on July 11, 2013 at 9:32am

M P B if you don't like me saying a forgery is ugly, or a piece-of-crap, don't read my posts. Simple as that. 

" How are people like myself to learn what is good or bad when I am given no information?  The simple answer is we cannot."

Incredibly false. Take the time and research/study exemplars. It's not something that comes overnight, which is why we can't just "tell you" why it's fake. You still won't get it unless you study. Go through the posts on this website, look at posts of people asking whether or not a signature is authentic, make your decision, then look at the responses.

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Permalink Reply by 2si9gjw9em85g on July 11, 2013 at 9:43am

Hey Ryan - that's the type of comment that caused MM to leave the board.  I am not attacking you.  I am asking for civility.  Apparently, that isn't an option from certain people.

On exemplars - where do you find them for 80's metal bands?  I don't know where they exist.  I haven't been able to find them.

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Permalink Reply by Null on July 11, 2013 at 9:47am

M P B: 

Your comments like this don't help support your cause:  "Apparently you feel that you must use that type of language or verbiage to get your point across.  Why?  I have no idea.  Maybe in the past you felt no one was reading your work/threads.  Thus, you started to escalate your word choices to gather an audience?  " 

You are personally taking a shot at me here. I'm describing a FORGERY as UGLY. Big difference. And only seems to offend those who get caught selling them.

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Permalink Reply by 2si9gjw9em85g on July 11, 2013 at 9:50am

Your verbiage offends me and in my opinion isn't civil.  I don't sell autographs thus your comment doesn't support your  attempted point.

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on July 11, 2013 at 7:31pm

Im sorry but I don't understand the uproar over someone calling an obvious forgery anything we want to call it. it is a piece of paper, photo, ball, whatever, that someone put a signature on, for the sole purpose of duping someone out of their money.  plain and simple.  Forgeries are our enemy.  We despise them and the people responsible for masterminding and propagating them.  these sellers that are called out on this site are not personally abused, with these posts of forgeries. But somehow they take it personally, when in fact, if you are selling something, it is your responsibility to make sure it is what it is supposed to be.  Saying "I thought it was real" is not good enough. if you are selling autographs to turn a profit you need to be better than that.

Guys, continue doing what you are doing.  No one can fault us for doing the right thing, even if it does ruffle some feathers from time to time.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on July 11, 2013 at 4:19pm

Really, folks are offended? Give me a break. As long as there is no vulgar language or discriminatory stuff which I would agree with. But Calling a forgery crap is to mean? I have seen it all now. Wow.

tell you what, ill call blatant forgeries whatever I want. You all can call forgeries "nice little surprises" or "oopsies" for all I care. Be kind and loving to those ripping people off. I'm not going to.

Takes brass balls to collect autographs. Maybe some should try and revive the Beanie Baby craze. About now it may be retro.

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Permalink Reply by Null on July 11, 2013 at 6:12pm

Thank you Rick. I try my best to be civil (out of respect for Steve), but I don't understand how calling a forgery a "piece of crap" is offensive. Perhaps I should call them "beautiful"/"pretty"/"nice" forgeries. LOL. The fact is, how many people has MPB helped on this site? ZERO. How many have myself, you, Christopher, Terrier, Zipper, etc helped? Hundreds. Nuff' said.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on July 11, 2013 at 10:03am

I agree with Wascher and some others here. Let's all try harder to treat other members with respect and discuss rather than argue. One of the problems is that typed communications like discussions replies, blog comments and emails are the most perfect form of MIScommunication. Others can't hear your voice, so it can be hard to tell how something is meant. Heck, I haven't learned the lesson well enough myself. Many times I've said things with humourous intent and the person I was communicating with thought I was being serious.

Most of us are on the same team here: protecting collectors from forgeries and the forgery industry. Let's always keep that in mind.

Thanks everyone,

Steve

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on July 11, 2013 at 11:41pm

Ryan, Terrier, Rick:

I think keeping the language clean and not too inflammatory here will help us reach our goal of protecting people against forgeries.

Regarding words like, "crap" and other profanity, low level like that word and worse: One of the most effective things we can do is educate fans and collectors while they're young. While you have to be 13 or older to join this site, it's read by kids as young as grade school age, and even low-level profanity isn't appropriate for them, and their parents may not allow them to use the site.

It's also important for people to feel comforable posting autographs without fear of being embarrassed or drawn into an inflammatory situation. Most just want advice and answers to their questions. They don't want to be ridiculed or feel stupid for making the mistake of being sold a forgery.

Many people have told Wascher and me that they don't post on the site for fear of being ridiculed or embarrassed. To reach our goals, I think that we need to reduce that fear as much as possible without diminishing our message.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on July 12, 2013 at 4:17am

Steve, I will respond to your comment more in detail later on, but on the whole I agree with you.

I don't think anyone is more emotional about this subject than me, and I get infuriated when I continue to see forgeries listed on Ebay and other sites. 

In my opinion, the amount of forgeries in the hobby is at an all-time high.

But at the same time, the amount of forgeries (especially "Florida") forgeries in the hobby is at an all-time high because those "Florida" forgeries are purchased by people whose only intention is to flip  them on Ebay for a profit.

More later...

But on the whole, I agree with you, Steve. 

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on July 12, 2013 at 4:31am

Steve, I understand what you are saying and I also agree that some of the language could be avoided, and it would certainly encourage more people to participate.  But if someone comes on with the sole purpose of trashing us, or stirring things up, then they should be fair game to be treated accordingly.  

But someone just asking for an opinion, should be provided with the opinion, without the inflammatory comments, I do agree with that.

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