Authenticity is Everything
Billie Holiday Autograph
I purchased this 78 vinyl record purportedly signed by Billie Holiday from an RACC trusted seller. I recently submitted the item to JSA for authentication, and unfortunately it did not pass.
I originally submitted it in person at a show here in CA a few weeks ago, and I was disappointed by how carelessly the item was handled during intake. When I received it back, there were fingerprints all over it. I contacted JSA immediately to report the condition, and they did expedite the review process.
Yesterday I received their letter confirming that the autograph did not pass authentication. I’m extremely disappointed and unsure what my next step should be, or if anyone here might be able to offer advice.
Prior to purchasing the item, I did my research and examined the signature characteristics—such as the looping of “Billie” and the shape of the “H” in “Holiday.” However, upon further inspection, the signature appears to have been written in ballpoint pen. Additionally, the Blue Ace label is known to be a bootleg label, and this particular pressing seems to have been released slightly before the time of her passing.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva
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Thanks. A listing price of $8 and a final auction result of $322 doesn't inspire confidence. The open market usually speaks so unless the item was listed such that those in the know didn't see it the final sales price has to ring major alarm bells.
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Permalink Reply by Ryan W
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The Strange Fruit sleeve she signed literally looks like a completely different person. Why don’t you critique that? Because it has proper authentication. Yet Roger’s expertise suddenly means nothing? You will never convince me this isn’t real.
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The Strange Fruit follows a lot more of the "rules" than yours.
The general lack of "looping" of the "i" s (the second one in Billie" does have one).
The height of the "l"s in Billie.
The shape and very modest looping of the "e" in Billie.
The "v" link from the "H" to the "o" in Holiday (no loop)
It certainly doesn't follow all my "rules" precisely, which is why I was careful in the way I described them. For instance, this is the example with the atypical detached straight underlining that I mentioned in discussing the tail/underling from the "y". The form of the "B" is also a bit closer to yours than most others and the backward loop from the "o" to the "l" is not really visible.
Roger's authentication means a great deal commercially. I don't think I will ever convince you of my arguments but that doesn't matter if you have Roger's LOA.
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I can’t help but think of the comment about ‘please don’t send me amateur opinions’
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That's fine.
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Permalink Reply by JK
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You (Ryan) certainly are disrespectful towards experienced people who have spent considerable time sharing not only their opinions but also their methodology.
Roger's opinion is greatly respected in the business so you have what you wanted. I do note, though, that he was unwilling to consider what he dismissively called "amateur opinions". The people who gave their opinions here are not "amateurs".
Those here who gave their detailed analysis are some of the best people to ask for opinions so now that you've rejected their expertise I guess you'll be relying on TPAs from now on.
It's also funny how you blasted JSA for supposedly getting it wrong, but then you put blind faith in Roger because he told you what you want to hear. Your confidence in TPAs seems to depend on whether or not they deliver good news.
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JK —
First, this is not about being disrespectful—I’ve been hearing the same criticisms for days, and at this point, the constant negativity becomes disrespectful in itself. I’ve stated multiple times that I believe this autograph is authentic and have provided detailed reasons for that belief.
As for Roger, we’ve already established that he has more experience than probably anyone at JSA, and they never had the physical copy. This isn’t about what I wanted to hear—it’s about what I genuinely believe.
Furthermore, whether I spent $900 or $9,000, it was my hard-earned money to enjoy. All I’m getting is repeated negativity and accusations that this is a fake. Please don’t jump in two weeks later just to throw more fuel on the fire after I’ve already spent my time and shared my thoughts.
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So now you are going to decide who can comment on your thread?
I have been with this discussion from the beginning, but I left the analysis to those with more knowledge about the signature being discussed.
I think this thread stopped being about Billie Holiday some time ago and is now just an exercise in defending those who agree with you and attacking those who do not.
Authentication is not a binary proposition - real or fake. There is a large area in between that consists of authentic autographs that show deviations as well as really good forgeries. That is where experienced people might disagree.
You have your letter from Roger so why keep fighting? Just agree to disagree and move on.
Other people here are interested in the intellectual exercise of examining and analyzing autographs. It is an important skill to learn if someone doesn't want to just rely on TPAs.
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And the bigger issue you’re ignoring: this is on a record label, not flat paper. Different surface, different resistance, different spacing constraints. Those factors absolutely affect letter shape, size, and flow.
So unless you can show examples that cannot be reconciled under those conditions, pointing out differences from a preferred pattern isn’t proof of anything.
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All the factors you mention shouldn't affect the fundamentals of an autograph. Why would a different surface, different resistance or spacing constraints cause extra loops for instance?
When I have to sign a slippery electronic screen with my finger (e.g. for the postman) my signature is certainly not as it would be if I were writing with a pen on paper but that is a very different kettle of fish. Here we are taking about signing a paper label with a biro.
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There are no extra loops. What you’re calling ‘extra loops’ isn’t some new stylistic element—it’s just natural variation in how the pen moved in that moment
I’m not following your logic—you’ve pointed to examples that deviate much more from her usual signature, but somehow this is the one you consider abnormal.
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