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Compare two signatures

I would like to know if the same man signed 2 documents. He is not a famous person, but is an ancestor of mine. Both of these historic documents are owned by a state archive. I have only scans/photocopies and I need the information for genealogical purposes.

The first signature (top document) was on a petition dated 8 June 1781. If it is the same man he would have been 57 years old when he signed. The second signature (bottom) is on the man’s will dated 14 years later on 22 September 1795. At that time he stated that he was “sick of body” and he actually died 8 days later on 1 Oct 1795.

I sent it to JSA, but they said it wasn't something they would do. Does anyone know of a company or "certified" person who would give an opinion?

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on December 21, 2016 at 5:53am

They look the same generally to me; the Lower signature looks like one signed by an individual nearing the end of his days

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on December 21, 2016 at 6:50am

While one is shaky and the other not, the general formation, slant, sizing and spacing are highly consistent. Unless there is a reason to believe there may be deceptive forgery at play or it was signed by a skilled proxy, I think it's reasonable conclusion both were signed by the same person.

If you need some sort of formal report from an expert, I believe you would have to retain a credible questioned documents examiner. It would be expensive.

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Permalink Reply by Karen Wolzanski on December 21, 2016 at 11:07am

Thanks for the advice. There is no reason to suspect forgery with either document. I found one document examiner online with a price list for legal consultation and - Wow - are you right about the cost! I have contacted one other and will see what he gives as a quote for this particular problem.

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on December 21, 2016 at 11:21am

Perhaps you should clarify the need for a formal forensic signature analysis. I would never attest to anything in this regard but surely people who deal with handwriting and autographs over a long period are likely to give as valid opinion as an "expert." The fact that you are persuing this suggests that either money or property are involved or someone is contesting the will.

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Permalink Reply by Karen Wolzanski on December 21, 2016 at 4:17pm

If you aren't into genealogy this will seem very silly to you. There were several men by the same name in NJ during this time. I am trying to prove that my ancestor - the guy who signed the will - was a patriot during the American Revolution. The other signature was on a petition to the NJ legislature in June of 1781 which was before the end of the war. The men who signed would be considered patriots by the Daughters of the American Revolution. I think both signatures were made by the same man, but I would like to have a written "expert" opinion to backup my claim.

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on December 21, 2016 at 3:51pm

just an opinion but I believe it is very likely that both were signed by the same person.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on December 21, 2016 at 4:27pm

I agree with Steve and terrier8HOF, if both of these documents are owned by the state archive, there is little chance that there is anything funny going on here. The formation of the letters and spacing is right on the money.

Is it the same man that you have any other samples of his handwriting?

I am certainly not a historian or a forensic document examiner, but the average life expectancy in the 1780-1790's was 36 years of age. If your calculations putting this gentleman at 57 in 1781, and he died in 1795 that would make him 71 (nearly double the average life expectancy.)

Did this relative have any offspring, possibly a son of the same name?

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on December 21, 2016 at 4:48pm

Pete: I'm not sure what the average age in 1780-1790 has to do with the question at hand. Unless a patriot was killed in battle there were many people that exceeded the average age in that time period, some well known and famous like Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, John Adams etc and those of less notoriety including soldier Joseph plum Martin who was born in 1760 and lived until 1850.

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Permalink Reply by Karen Wolzanski on December 21, 2016 at 4:55pm

Yes and his son was also Thomas Gardner. He is on a copy of a NJ militia list, but no original signature. I have found several deeds in county deed books both before and after Thomas Gardner Sr.'s death, but they are all clerks' copies. I haven't found any other examples of senior's signature.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on December 21, 2016 at 5:14pm

I was only asking to be sure that you had the correct dates of birth and death, and considered the possibility that family members with the same names could indeed wreak havoc on genealogy searches. Thomas could have had a son Thomas (which you verified) and Thomas Sr. may well have been the son of another Thomas.

I wish you the best of luck, and I do believe the both documents are signed by the same person. Verifying that this person is your forefather without other samples of his handwriting from within your family records, that is where things get really tricky.

My grandmother attempted this type of research decades ago to verify my grandfather's family claims that they were among the early settlers of the colonies.

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Permalink Reply by Ian Baldock on December 21, 2016 at 4:44pm

The opinions here rival any so called top forensic expert as far as I'm concerned. If its for some government acceptance of something that you must have one of those types then google around using that language. Other than that it looks similar.