Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 19, 2020 at 5:00am

It was a trade, Mike. I have reached out and tried to come up with a remedy. It is clear that K9 has a solid reputation and that many collectors trust him. And I'm sure it is well deserved. I'm always learning something new in this hobby. Perhaps this is just another aspect we all must consider when we decide to buy, sell, or trade an autograph. There is always some measure of risk involved.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on July 19, 2020 at 5:29am

Unless the autograph that you traded has already been sold and/or the Harrison Ford autograph was a consignment, I cannot imagine an issue with standing behind what you have reported is written in the seller’s guarantee.  Regardless, there should still be a willingness to resolve the matter.  Perhaps members here who are familiar with the seller will be willing to reach out on your behalf.  Best of luck.  Keep us posted.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on July 19, 2020 at 5:34am

What did you trade towards this piece? If the trade was lower value, I'd say you made out pretty good. You have a piece that one person in this thread already said he would buy. 

Because you haven't answered my question and you claim to have been rejected by 4 authenticators, I'm guessing you're using quick opinions, which are a game of roulette at best. I don't trust any of them to know what they're talking about to begin with, and quick opinion reduces that significantly further. I also don't think a seller should be offering refunds over quick opinions. 

You keep talking about a remedy or a solution, but it seems like you want something too specific to satisfy a personal set of criteria. The autograph is authentic and it comes from the leading in person collector of Ford autographs on the street. Yes, it looks atypical from sit down signings, but it shares similarities with his other sloppy in person autographs. It also looks exactly the same as it did the day you originally traded for it. 

If you're eager to get rid of it because it isn't passing (what I suspect are) unreliable third party quick opinions and you know for a fact this autograph and cert came from K9, list it for a reasonable price to knowledgeable Ford collectors and you will sell it quickly. 

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 19, 2020 at 6:07am

You seem to be knowledgeable, JXE.

What value would you place on this particular Ford signed photo?

What was my end of the trade? Robert Shaw.

And, if Anthony requested a full submission in order to facilitate an exchange that would not be a problem. I would do that. I went to four sources not to prove it bad but the exact opposite. Giving the benefit of the doubt. Even you acknowledged earlier it would not pass.

Consigning his autograph back to him to resale is being unreasonable?

I'm not eager to get rid of it. It simply will not pass any independent authentication. I does not fit my criteria.

I can see that you and many others here think highly of K9. Does that make him perfect or beyond reproach?

I'm human. I make mistakes. And, yes, you can place the blame of me. But the situation is what it is. Hopefully others will benefit from discussions like this. This is a challenging hobby that continuously evolves.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 19, 2020 at 6:32am

BTW, for those who think this is about requesting money you are mistaken. It was a trade and I was not asking or expecting there be any monetary funds involved. 

This discussion seems to be more about the dealer and less about the autograph. That, in and of itself, is problematic.

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Permalink Reply by Macca Fan on July 19, 2020 at 6:37am

Joe & JXE , lots of good points brought up, this hobby really does continue to evolve , I agree it’s a slippery slope concerning refunds when using quick opinions, there are allot of collectors on here that don’t care if its certified by a TPA and I understand that , but there is always the issue of maybe some day selling your item, a good amount of collectors won’t consider it without some type of approval and I think it was mentioned earlier that list of collectors is growing , I currently have a item that does not pass a TPA and I am not asking for a refund because it’s a quick opinion only ,I want to have it looked at in person by a TPA to be fair to the seller 

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 19, 2020 at 6:47am

Again, if this is about full authentication, pre-certified, or quick opinions this would have been done already. I have no problem paying for a full authentication if the person I am dealing with requires or requests that.

Should I require the person to reimburse that cost if it fails as well? When I offer autographs for sale I also guarantee they will pass TPA. In fact, I go one step further and promise to pay their fee as well if it fails. 

In fact, in this case, I would welcome it would to pass and not fail. Everyone has their own personal criteria on what is acceptable or not. I like the photo the signature is on that well.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on July 19, 2020 at 7:17am

Robert Shaw on what? Just like the range on Ford street scribbles to sit downs, Shaw ranges significantly whether it's a playbill or something related to Jaws.

I think you could sell that Ford quickly for $200-300. 

Yes, I think asking K9 to sell an autograph on consignment for because you got it in a trade from someone else and now you are concerned about what third party authenticators might think is unreasonable. K9 is does not sell items on consignment. The fact that you didn't buy this photo from him makes this even more complicated. If anything, I think your dispute should be with the person you traded with. You probably shouldn't have rushed into a trade without weighing the pros and cons of the provenance versus the provenance of the autograph. This is a case where you would have to say to yourself, "it's a sloppy autograph, but based on where it came from and its similarities to other sloppy Ford autographs it's worth a spot in my collection."

For years now Beckett refused to authenticate any Emma Stone autographs because she is so sloppy and inconsistent. Does that make every Emma Stone autograph not authentic? What should an autograph collector do if they want one then? The best answer is to train yourself on the autographs themselves and the people collecting them and make an informed decision. 

I said it before and I'll say it again: a K9 cert is more valuable to Ford collectors than a Beckett cert, PSA etc. You can call that problematic, but it's less problematic than putting your faith in a third party authenticator. In this case, you can see the similarities between this signatures and Ford's other sloppy street signatures and you can see the reputation of the autograph collector. That's a call you need to make before you make your purchase or your trade or whatever.

There's always going to be that gray area, where a collector's reputation and the quality of the autograph are going to force you to make a call whether you want a sloppy autograph in your collection. If you aren't comfortable with that gray area, you need to buy the $1,000+ sit down autographs.

I can't comment on what K9 should have done or should not have done because you aren't painting a complete picture. I am not going to speculate on how that exchange went and form an opinion based on such speculation. 

If it were me, I would be 100% happy with the piece. If I couldn't live with it, I would sell it to knowledgeable Ford collectors. 

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 19, 2020 at 9:46am

I repeat again, this trade was with K9. Not somebody else.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on July 19, 2020 at 10:40am

This is the first time you clearly stated that you traded for it directly with K9. You still have not been clear about whether the 3 "failed to be verified" and 1 inconclusive were quick opinions or actual authentication submissions. 

In some posts you say it's not about the money or it's not about the authentication, but you're also looking for responses that support your trader's remorse. Based on what I think I know about these circumstances now, I guess that an actual letter of rejection from a TPA should warrant a trade back... not because it's not authentic, though; but because this falls within the technicality of it being a Ford street scribble from an impeccable source that might be tough for a TPA to pass on (unless one of their whale clients submitted it). I also think that If I were asked by someone to do a tradeback under those circumstances, I would be weary about entering any future transactions. 

In the future, I recommend that you ask yourself or fellow collectors these questions and make sure you are comfortable owning a piece that falls in that kind of a gray area before entering a transaction. You will save yourself a lot of frustration.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on July 19, 2020 at 8:10am

I agree with JXE, with one exception.  If in fact a seller guarantees that an autograph will not fail third-party authentication, it should not matter how the autograph was acquired.  Whether by consignment, purchase or trade, the seller should stand by their guarantee.

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Permalink Reply by JXE on July 19, 2020 at 9:58am

I think it would be nice if a seller offered that guarantee to people beyond the person who bought the autograph from them. I'm just saying that I've definitely seen it work both ways and I've seen guarantees that specifically say "to the original purchaser." 

I also want to reiterate that I believe a "likely not authentic" quick opinion or an "inconclusive" quick opinion does not meet a standard of failing third party authentication. The bare minimum should be a rejection letter after it was examined in person. 

And if I got a rejection letter on this autograph, I'd throw the letter in the trash and continue to enjoy owning that autograph. I want to specify that when I talk about the gray area of street scribbles and the impeccable reputation of collectors, I'm talking about a very specific few. A few I don't know personally (K9, Michael Wehrmann, etc.), and the rest are personal friends. Street scribbles happen. If they're discounted, they resemble other street scribbles, and I trust the source, even if they might not be certified by a third party authenticator they will always be worth more to me than a fake autograph that a third party authenticator incorrectly stickered for a big client. 

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