We are an eBay affiliate and may be compensated for clicks on links that result in purchases.

Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)

This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread.

That thread; proposed;

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

and it seems to have merit. However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean. There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.

Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.

Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar. I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book. Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.

Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications; ... indisputable work. It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.

I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso. It is thru the posting of perceived hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory. I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos.

I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent. it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory. I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.

6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;

R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).

R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item. The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos. Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible. If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.

2 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on June 13, 2012 at 5:48am

What do you mean "arrow hook"? I have no idea what you are referring to.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on June 13, 2012 at 5:58am

evidenced in the 4th one above that don't appear in the other four. Based on the other aspects it seems fine nonetheless.

the following SPs all have them but also have the associated Dbl L's. Are there any secretarial books that follow this style and what if any are distinguishing characteristics?

Where a loop from the N in ton goes upward and creates the "arrow" that then crosses the T, H & T and all done in the same stroke.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on June 13, 2012 at 6:17am

The "arrow hook" is also present in a lot of genuine examples. I assume that's where his secretary got it, and since the secretarial autograph is much more uniform than Heston's real autograph, it's on a vast majority of the secretarial autographs. Early autographs don't have it, or at least not much, so I assume it's a trait he developed to save time signing. Nowadays an actor would just change his signature to two dots and a squiggly line to do that.

Books, seemingly he signed through the mail, and also at book signings.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on June 13, 2012 at 6:32am

Sibley pinpointed in a few examples of his "in person" ones with the "arrow hook" around the mid '80s. The checks previously posted and 4 of the 5 books don't have it but appear similar to the checks which are dated in the 70s thus the '70s look perhaps and presuming it's him signing not the Mrs.

There were some comments in the Signature thread (I think) that alluded to not only someone on his staff but also his sister where alot of fan mail went to which could also account for "secretarial" variations.

Thus, if someone comes across the secretarial signed book or a real variation they can dovetail into this sub thread.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on June 13, 2012 at 7:17am

Don't be too honest - actually, we should post a complete Lie and see how long it takes for it to work it's way into the marketplace. Like pals of mine who create maps... they will put in something (a marker, a road that doesn't exist, a misnamed road after their dog) to prevent other mapmakers from using their work. I always had an issue with the road that doesn't exist...

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on June 13, 2012 at 7:35am

Huh?

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on June 13, 2012 at 7:45am

this way if "their" map shows up in someone's elses publications there are usually damages paid to the originator "cause only they know where they put these false indicators (and it is usally more than one).

Thus if we plant some false "tells" then we see if forgers are really really reading, listening & paying attention as many of us paranoid ones seem to think.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 13, 2012 at 10:09am

Anyone planting false info here will be summarily executed.

Or even worse: forced to swallow three Slinkies and sold to the TSA as a training dummy.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 13, 2012 at 8:07am

I've give you an example of what DB means by markers:

The 6th edition of the "Sanders Price Guide to Autographs" had a some fake and non-celebrity names as markers in order to detect plagiarism.

The 3rd edition of "The Autograph Collector Price Guide" had some or all of these markers in it: strong evidence that the author, Kevin Martin, plagiarized Sanders Guide for it.

It was before I bought Autograph Collector, and I'm not sure if they sued or threatened to sue, but Autograph Collector's parent paid quite a bit of money to Sanders, and Mark Baker was brought in to author the 4th edition.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bob Shinn on June 15, 2012 at 4:59pm

DB...

How have you been?

I am a little confused here.

Do you think the signature on the Bejing Diary book is authentic?

I see many problems with it and was just wondering.

All the best

Bob

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on June 15, 2012 at 6:24pm

excellent pickup bob as of all of them that is the one I'd be struggling with. It seemed to be a very early signature style but in contrast to an authentic w/o question earlier period I cannot land on authentic but is it a secretarial variation or an outright forgery?