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How to handle a dispute? Please let me know your thoughts!
Hi everyone!
I would really appreciate your help regarding a transaction I’ve made with a trusted dealer (with a long experience of buying & selling) in a FB group where we can’t agree on a fair solution for both parties. I think it is most fair to not name either the dealer or the FB group and just focus on the facts.
Ok, here is the full (long) story: I sold two autographs for $520 to him and he got to choose if he wanted to pay a higher sum with Goods&Service or a lesser sum with Friends&Family, he chose to pay F&F. I then asked him if he wanted the package marked with a low value to avoid custom fees and he said yes to this. (See photo 1&2)
In my opinion both these choices were made to save the buyer money but both choises comes with a higher risk involved, which the buyer for sure knew since he has a long experience in the autograph community. I have myself bought lots of items where the sellers have marked the package low to save me from custom fees, always with the understanding that it means that it will not be insured and that I, as the buyer, will take the hit if something happens. I have always thought that was kind of a mutual understanding among collectors when marking an item with a low value.
The package was then shipped with trackingnumber and is trackable from me in Sweden to the buyer in the US. There is no way for me to put a $15 value on an item and then insure it for $520, since both shipping and insurance are bought from the same person at the postal office.
Unfortunally this time the package got lost, the US postal service has done an investigation and can’t find it.
The result of the buyers two choises above is that neither paypal (can’t use its buyer and seller protection since the payment was done with Friends&Family) or the swedish postal service (since it was marked with a low value) will cover for the lost package, meaning that if refunded I will take the full hit.
In my opinion I asked the buyer what he wanted, he got to decide what would be best for him and then I did as we agreed on. And now he still says this is all on me and that I should refund him all the money. I have offered him a 50% refund to be fair, although I tecnically don’t have to since he chose to pay with Friends&Family. And to be honest, the way he’s behaving I’m thinking of just block him and give him nothing back!!
When trying to explain this to the buyer he said that I was totally wrong and that he would make a thread on FB where he would ask the members for their opinion and according to him these replies would then determine how we settle this. But for some reason (!!!) he didn’t mention anything about him chosing Friends&Family and a low value on the package, that I shipped with trackingnumber and that I despite this still have offered him a 50% refund. If I didn’t know better it’s almost as if he did that on purpose to get the answers he wanted… He then uses the answers from the (misled) members to push me to refund him. And when contacting me with the results he for some reason only attach screenprints from the members that agrees with him, not everyone who doesn’t…
And now it has gone so far that he makes ”hidden threats” against me, saying that he will make a public post if I doesn’t fully refund him.
To get advices I’ve asked several of my long time collector friends how to handle this and one would refund even though he thinks the blaim isn’t on me, two would try to find a solution that both are happy with and the last three said that I shouldn’t refund anything, that the buyer fully knew what he was doing.
I have sold hundreds of autographs over the years and there have never been any problems until this autumn were two packages got lost at the same time. But the other had been marked with a correct value so after a long discussion with the swedish postal service (they never makes it easy) they finally covered the lost package and I could refund the seller and that situation got resolved. But the above is a very unfortunate situation for me. Here’s a link to some feedback I recieved at Autograph Magazine Live when selling here: https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/member-gogo?xg_source=activity
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts about this situation. Thank you for helping and take care!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dan Morris on
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The doctrine of clean hands. As he asked you or agreed to your suggestion of lower custom value and paying via Friends and Family he does not have clean hands and as such is not entitled to a full refund. He should bite your hand off for the 50% and move on. He would have had no complaint had the items arrived safely but now expects to get a full refund, simply not possible.
In regards to the threats, I'd made the group admins on FB aware of his threats so they may sanction or remove him and do not give into the threats.
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I think most of us have been there either on the side of the buyer who wants to save money or the seller who tries to help the buyer. This buyer has some nerve though asking for a full refund when they agreed to change things to save money.
Hopefully, the admins will kick him out of the group, you have a good reputation so as annoying as it is it's highly unlikely you will find many will listen especially if they find out you did things for his benefit. If they do kick him I agree with your give him nothing, you don't owe him a cent as he decided to take the risk.
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Permalink Reply by michelle on
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If the buyer was experienced he/she would have known the risks of paying paypal friends and family so I think the offer of 50 per cent refund is a very fair offer as long as he/she knew the risks of paying in that way., not everyone does. Actually I think he will be hoisted by his/her own petard if he goes public on facebook re the dispute, just my opin fr what its worth
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Permalink Reply by Mikex on
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I wouldn't have agreed to a lower value and friends and family where you leave yourself in a difficult position. If it were eBay you would have to give a full refund. Difficult one. Non of you can take legal action due to the nature of the transaction.
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I would offer him 75% refund, unless you pointed out the implications of if going missing before he made the choices.
If you made the offer of the choices, then you would be mostly to blame and the buyer would be mostly to blame if he introduced these offers.
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Have to disagree. Cogo is as most sellers doing trying to help the buyer and help them avoid large custom fees and Paypal fees. You're right that eBay would award the buyer a full refund but Facebook means the buyer has the right to zero and 50% IMO is generous!.
The only good thing is that you learn quickly when these things happen you make sure you never repeat the same mistake!
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If the seller offered these choices, he was acting illegally. It the seller introduced these offers without letting the buyer know the implications if the package went missing, then the seller is to blame.
Whoever initiated the deal is mostly to blame.
Did the buyer know he had no protection from PayPal if he chose F&F and was he aware that tax avoidance is illegal? As I said the person who instigated the transaction is mostly to blame.
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The important factor is whether the buyer was fully aware he couldn't claim against PayPal if the package went missing. Did you assume he would know or was it discussed. If the buyer was fully aware of the implications if it went missing, then it should be more like 50/50. The choices on offer had implications if the package goes missing. Were these discussed and understood by the buyer. If not, the seller must take responsibility.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Booth on
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It is always a tricky situation and fully understand the problems. I think Cogo, on your behalf, you have been very fair offering a 50% refund.
The buyer has agreed to both friends and family to save the fees and low customs value to save more money. They knew the risks and cannot expect a full refund with this situation and outcome.
I know that you, as a fair person, have been great to offer 50% of the payment. I would do the same, although that is your choice. It is horrible when things like this happen and it gets messy. If they are a long time autograph dealer, they know the risks more than anybody and it is really on them.Hope it gets resolved for you my friend.
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If the buyer suggested F&F then 50% is very fair. However, suggesting sending as a gift meant no one could make a claim. An expensive lesson.
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Some random thoughts...
It's a real mess that was created by two parties trying to benefit the buyer. All the workarounds were for the buyer's benefit, and each had obvious risk.
The buyer chose F&F - that's 100% on him. You agreed to the lower customs value, which limited your ability to properly insure it. Although you saved the insurance fee, it really was for the buyer's benefit on the other end. (They are so loose with postal customs in the US, though, so I don't know why it was an issue).
The buyer was happy to benefit from all these things, until the package went missing.
What did the buyer think he was doing by choosing the cheaper F&F? Did the buyer wrongly believe that you could lowball the customs value but still fully insure it?
On another note, what was the real reason for adding tracking? It provided no financial protection. Did you not trust the buyer to be honest about receiving it?
I would be afraid that any accommodation to the buyer won't really settle this as he may take the money you offer and still attack your reputation. Until he admits at least some degree of responsibility I don't see any negotiation as being practical.
In the future, the buyer can do what they want with PP as long as they take the risk, but you should not jeopardize your insurance position by altering the value on the shipping forms.
BTW, how do you know for sure he didn't receive it? I've seen even registered packages go "missing" for tracking purposes when the tracking was simply overlooked at some point along the way. For example, I got a registered letter from the UK that came into the US as normal mail because it was overlooked as a registered item.
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If the buyer suggested FF, then he cut off his right to claim. If the seller suggested sending as a gift he cut off his right to claim, so in that instance a 50/50 split is very fair. Both of you are equally at fault. You have all the money, so you should have more bargaining power.
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