Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on November 20, 2014 at 4:20pm

Of course they wouldn't publicly admit using proxy signers. There is a long history of celebrities offices not being entirely forthcoming about using proxy signatures. Charlton Heston stated many times over the years he signed his mail. So has Travolta's office. We know how true those claims were. 

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on November 20, 2014 at 4:48pm

So I spent a little time finding all the signed books images I could online. Between this thread, eBay and Google it amounted to a few dozen signed books... all with the red signatures.

For someone who is supposed to be wildly inconsistent and quirky, the signed books are all amazingly consistent:

* No swooping bottom loop of the J that goes over the "erry" in any signed book. Not one.

* No loopy bottom of the y in any book. All shoot straight down and end abruptly.

* All small looking and tight. No loose and large flowing examples.

* All have the L in Lee that looks like a sharp angled 7 or a 2.

That is four consistent traits in these books that are atypical with verified JLL exemplars. Sure you will occasionally find verified JLL examples that have one or more of these traits... but that cannot excuse a large batch that ALL have numerous atypical traits.

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Permalink Reply by Ian Baldock on November 20, 2014 at 5:42pm

Yes the signatures on the books are all very consistent , almost like somebody took their time to "copy " each one, I would've thought an older guy might have been a bit sloppier after awhile but all books are perfectly clean.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on November 20, 2014 at 9:23pm

Have you compared the book signatures to the “Great Balls of Fire” signature that I posted? It contains 3 of the 4 characteristics that you mentioned.

The swooping “J” and loopy “Y” that you’re seeing appear in signatures in which he probably had only one or maybe a few to sign at that particular time. In the case of the books, he apparently had a total of 750 to complete. Could he have possibly decided to forgo those flourishes in the interest of time and endurance? Keep in mind that the book signatures contain two different styles of “E”, each of which doesn’t always appear in the same position within each signature. This is consistent with JLL’s signing habits. If a proxy signer went that far in an attempt to fool the public, would they not also attempt to copy the characteristics that you’ve mentioned if they alone were consistent with JLL's signature?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on November 21, 2014 at 8:59am

Ballroom

Is the Great Balls of Fire photo a verified exemplar? I do not recall the history of it, but for this case let's assume it is a good example. To me, it is not small and tight and the L in Lee is not as angular like a 7 as we see in the books. So it exhibits 2 of the 4 atypical traits I outlined above IMO.

As I wrote earlier, in my estimation you cannot use outlier authentic examples with a few atypical traits to justify a large batch that ALL have multiple atypical traits. For instance, that would be like finding one authentic Mickey Mantle that had an atypically shaped M and using it to "authenticate" a giant batch of banana Mantle style fakes.

You have also discussed the "e"s and the slurred "ry." In my mind, these are common handwriting traits that anyone could do while replicating the name. Not something so unique to JLL that no proxy would ever do it. If you were to write the name Jerry 10 times fast probably a few of them would have the r and y slurred together. 

JLL is not my area of expertise... I am just going by what I have seen here and some cursory research. Who knows... maybe you are right... I can't state with absolute certainty JLL did not sign these. But from a collector standpoint, we all have our own levels of risk tolerance.  For my collection, I prefer no-doubters that have a low likelihood of being questioned by knowledgeable people. Given the doubts raised by a number of savvy collectors and a recognized music authenticator, I would choose to pass on them for my collection.

Best regards.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on November 21, 2014 at 11:08am

Thanks for your thoughts. The GBOF signature is not verified, but here are a few other examples of the GBOF inscription. The first one in particular contains characteristics that appear consistent with accepted examples.

I have to disagree about the “e” and “ry” issue, as it is quite prevalent and present in more relaxed looking signatures. It appears to me to be a signature trait and not something that occurs due to repetitive signing.

That said, I respect your decision to pass on the book and appreciate that you at least allow for the possibility that the signatures are authentic.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on November 21, 2014 at 11:11am

No problem and no hard feelings, Ballroom. I have a good deal of respect for your thoughtful and substantive contributions. Reasonable people can interpret things differently and agree to disagree. :-)

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on November 21, 2014 at 11:17am

Thanks, Steve. The feeling is mutual.

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on November 21, 2014 at 4:33pm

This one looks fine to me too including the "i" being dotted at the end like most known authentic examples.  Another thing of note is that JLL usually dots his eyes with a solid dot and not a slash which is a common trait on the pick guards in question and the books.  Now again there are going to be some that don't follow this but the majority do follow this pattern.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on November 21, 2014 at 4:55pm

I've seen a number of JLL signatures that are dotted with a dash, both vertically and horizontally, which is consistent with the book signatures. 

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on November 21, 2014 at 5:22pm

I made two statements not one.  Both are equally important.  I also stated that he did it now and again but the majority of the one known to have been signed in person vs the questioned Whitten ones is highly different.  Nearly every alleged Whitten autograph dots the "i" close to the "L" and makes them with a slash where as known JLL signatures dot the "i' near or over the end of "Lewis" and makes a distinct dot unlike the "alleged" Whitten signatures.  

Like I said before Ballroom I will never change your mind and that is fine with me, I'm just pointing out things that form mine and others opinions.  If JLL was a "quirky" signer as you stated then why are ALL the books that have been shown so incredibly similar?  Not even one looks like a known in person example or one that was photographed of him signing it at his home?  Now I maybe crazy but I also don't believe in Santa Claus either, Easter Bunny; well maybe….

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on November 21, 2014 at 6:08pm

While I've only seen a small percentage of the signed books, I've seen a combination of dots and dashes, both close to the "L" and farther away from the "L". Again, the dashes are both vertical and horizontal. Even within the similarity of signatures that were signed in close or relatively close succession, his quirkiness remains.

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