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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 29, 2018 at 10:16am

I agree with everything you've said and I also think that the "randomness" only serves to confuse the "typist being the signer" theory because of the obvious inconsistencies that I pointed out earlier.  Maybe "dismiss" the theory was the wrong word, I just wouldn't use it to make a final determination because, as we've seen, it can be very inconsistent or random.

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Permalink Reply by Tim H on August 29, 2018 at 9:44am

Wow.  Interesting discussion.  Thanks for all the comments and information.  We are all learning together.  Not trying to get religious, but if Pres. Kennedy is anywhere looking down, he's probably laughing!  Looks like most folks think the June 1, 1955 Kennedy letter sold by RR Auction (secretary jm, to Mr. Chapin) might be the authentic one, even though the other June 1, 1955 letter (secretary kg, to Miss Sciacca) has COAs from both PSA/DNA and University Archives.

Attachments: No photo uploads here

• EXAMPLE2Kennedy1955TLSIconicAuctionsbAp2015.jpg, 67 KB
• EXAMPLE2Kennedy1955TLSIconicAuctionscAp2015.jpg, 86 KB

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 29, 2018 at 9:48am

Take no notice of PSA

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 29, 2018 at 9:55am

Also, AGREE !  I believe that the Andreas' study is the most recent (I may be wrong) and very widely accepted … but would love to get his opinions on this as well as mine.

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on August 29, 2018 at 10:16am

Agree—Kennedy would be doubling over with laughter that we would be spending all of this thought and time such a trivial matter as to whether he signed something or not. Kennedy himself of course was an autograph collector but he dealt with an older time period where the risk of autopens and secretariats were much less or non existent. You can see a sample of some of the items JFK collected by googling or on the jfk library website.

he used to keep a GW letter, ADS or similar item framed on the wall behind his desk in the oval office

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Permalink Reply by Tim H on August 29, 2018 at 11:07am

The current studies on John Kennedy's signature are very helpful, but I wonder if someone could do a Kennedy signature study from 1947 to 1963 using only official U.S. House, Senate and Presidential documents, documents that legally had to be hand signed by Kennedy.  Are there such documents, ones that could not have been signed by a secretary, autopen or printed?  Even many presidential appointments and land grants have secretary, autopen or printed signatures.  Exclude from the study all signed letters, books, notes, pamphlets, fliers, postal covers, and maybe even appointments.  Exclude all items that could easily have been signed by a secretary, autopen or printed.  Would there be enough official documents left for a good study?

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on August 29, 2018 at 12:59pm

What you are asking for has already been done. As mentioned previously the USCC years ago published the Paul K Carr study. In it you will see hundreds of signatures from official documents that Carr got access to through Archives wherein he described stacks of official government documents. He would be going through document after document signed by Eisenhower and then come to Kennedy and the same process ensued. If you search I am sure you can find a copy of this or look it up on line at UACC.org. What I have written is distilled from that study. After a while you get dizzy from the number of signatures but what you come away from is that particularly as president the capital K is not how he writes Kennedy except possibly when he is signing legislation using 50 different pens.

by the way, it has been reported that Susan clough at least once secretarily signed official legislation for Carter and an autopen May have signed legislation for Obama

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Permalink Reply by Tim H on August 29, 2018 at 2:09pm

Hey, Thanks for the tip about the Paul K. Carr study.  Do you know the actual name of the book?  I have not been able to find it.  I looked at the UACC web site.  And I looked on the internet in general.  I found his Eisenhower study.  Will keep trying.  A phone number for him is listed at the UACC web site, so I can try that later.  thanks, Tim

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on August 30, 2018 at 6:13am

You would probably do best by calling him

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