Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
****ATTENTION: Steve Cyrkin, who manages this website, has asked for photos of your Liza signature.
You will need to take high-resolution images (3,000-4,000 pixels wide) of Liza's first name, last name, and smiley face SEPARATELY, as close up as can be, and saved as PNGs or the native file format (NOT JPEG).
Please take individual pictures that isolate each segment as best as possible.
Send to: editor@autographmagazine.com.
****Photos must be submitted per these guidelines****
Separately, feel free to also post your photos on the forum below for others to see.
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****WELCOME TO THE DISCUSSION****
“Signed” copies of Liza Minelli’s new book, Kids Wait Till You Hear This!, actually include autopen signatures.
Multiple signatures appear to share identical geometry in specific segments when overlaid.
⚠️ Still frame from a video showing the overlay process between two signatures:
Check out these videos showing the overlay testing process used to compare the signatures.
Note how “Liza” matches up
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps.
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Here is a visual walk-through of identifying matching segments in overlay. This reflects how the issue was initially discovered.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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One thing that’s also interesting: If you take the dust jacket off the book, Liza’s autograph is imprinted on the front hard cover underneath.
That signature matches a verified example that appears to date from at least the early 1990s:
What’s concerning is that some of the signature patterns inside the “signed” books seem very close to that same 90s example, which makes it look possible that the earlier verified signature may have been used as a template for the autopen signatures in the book:
(Book cover signature overlaid with a signature from inside book)
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The signatures in these books appear to have been produced by an advanced autopen system capable of introducing subtle variations in letter structure and placement, likely intended to disguise the mechanical origin.
Please see this video to learn more on how this works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
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You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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The Ls are weird in that one. I think one of the Premiere ones has an L like that. I’ll find it.
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Only other place I’ve seen an L like that…weird since they are both bookplates. I’ll try some overlaying to see if anything stands out
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Permalink Reply by Johnny Halts
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Three more posted from the LA Book Event last evening
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Great, thanks for finding those. Appreciate all your help on this Johnny.I’ve added those in and played around with them for a bit. I’ll continue that tomorrow to see what may stand out.
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Hi Matt! I've just caught up on the many pages of discussion about this - fascinating stuff. :) Thanks for all your hard work on this! Having attended the LA book event last night with my sister and two friends, I just joined the site to share photos of my sister's and my respective book autographs. I'm obviously no expert, but they do strike me as quite different from all of the others I've seen thus far (and I agree that the too-similar parallel lines in the bookstore versions do seem to indicate automation of some kind). Not sure what to think at this point! Though I do feel inclined to point out that my grandmother, despite also seeming rather frail and shaky in her 80s, continued to write many letters and could still sign her name no problem...so it doesn't seem entirely out of the realm of possibility to me that she could have signed some of them.
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Lauren's Signed Copy.jpg, 1.6 MB -
Megan's Signed Copy.jpg, 4.6 MB
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You know it's getting rough out there when the Ebay listings are now stating NO AUTOPEN.
Header listings are now stating NO AUTOPEN.
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I’m new to this discussion (was invited over from the FB discussion). Another avenue to possibly pursue might be contacting one or more of these autopen manufacturers with what are believed to be autopen examples and ask (very kindly) their opinion. They know their machines’ capabilities and one might even confirm these samples were likely made on their machine.
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Permalink Reply by Jason H
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Hi John, that's a good suggestion an wouldn't hurt at all to try even if we are sending messages to the makers of other machines, maybe someone out there does have info of what's newly created and even future plans. I love this idea and willing to give it a try. Hopefully others will as well
I've been painstakingly messaging media sources and their tip lines as well as journalists directly when I can find valid email addresses. Many come back failed delivery though. If anyone wants to help out, please go for it, search out local sources for smaller agencies that may be willing to pick this up. Link this discussion but post in a way that would catch their attention and convince them this is necessary to print.
I do have another new idea. As many of us as possible, can we try to bombard TMZ's tip line at the link below? I feel like if they see a ton of tips from multiple sources, it will gain their attention for at least a possible mention... It really is worth a try. I may post this again tomorrow in case it's missed. I can only do so much as one person and so far it hasn't gained traction anywhere. Very sad for a story like this because it's very deserving of media attention
TMZ tip line
1-888-847-9869 (I haven't called yet as I just thought of TMZ, smacking my head because they really should have been the first ones to contact but I was going off what worked for Bob Dylan, I will call tomorrow at a normal time)
Web form tips
https://www.tmz.com/pages/tips/
Also their Instagram if you want to try them on social media
https://www.instagram.com/tmz_tv?igsh=MXJlajI5ZnVjb2NrdQ==
And I know in the past, they responded to YouTube live stream comments if you copy and paste nonstop with cap letters... Ask me how I know haha....
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Jason - thanks for your reply and the info for contacting TMZ. Might it be a little premature until “we” (this group) feel more definitive about this and put a “case” if you will together? Probably will only get one bite at media publicity and need to have this put together to present.
I have a friend who used to be in print media in Austin, TX (I live just outside El Paso, TX). I’ll contact him tomorrow to get his take on how to approach and if he has any contacts.
This group might want to put together a press release to send to the various media reps and post on this site. Links in such a release could point to examples found that appear (or allegedly are) autopen.
I found an in person event in NYC on March 23, where Liza and Michael Feinstein are to be present and signed books distributed to ticket holders (and also available for those purchasing and watching live remotely). Is there anyone in this group who could attend on Monday, March 23 and pose the autopen question directly? It’s unclear on their site if the in person is sold out - I’ll try calling them tomorrow. In the meantime I purchased a ticket to the live online event which includes a “signed” copy - bringing my Liza allegedly autopen collection to 5 copies. Ugh!
I’m attaching screenshots from The Temple Emanu-El Streicker Cultural Center below. They link to Eventbrite for purchase. The center’s info is:
1 E. 65th St., New York, NY 10065; phone 212-507-9580, website: streicker.nyc
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IMG_5276.jpeg, 329 KB -
IMG_5275.jpeg, 257 KB
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IMG_5274.jpeg, 208 KB
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