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Mantle signature question

Came across this ball on ebay. Saw it was re-listed so I went back to the original listing and saw there were 2 bids but both were "retracted". 

Anything stand out as concerning? Thanks! 

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on September 2, 2024 at 9:41pm

It's a Mantle forgery style known since before 2000.

Permalink Reply by CLiebl on September 2, 2024 at 9:44pm

Oh damn, that explains it! Thanks Steve!

Permalink Reply by AustinCollector on September 3, 2024 at 5:25pm

IMO, this is authentic, and I believe it would pass professional authentication. A routine Mantle signature from the late 1980s-or early-1990s.  Space, speed, letter shape, alignment, and flow are all I expect to see from this era. 

Permalink Reply by AustinCollector on September 3, 2024 at 5:46pm

Here's a quick tip that a JSA authenticator taught me a few years ago that is one of the more useful tips I've learned in my 30 years of collecting Mantle:

Draw an imaginary line under Mickey, and expect to see Mantle considerably higher. The same can be true for "tle" from the letters that precede them. I've attached an example from a piece in my collection that is JSA authenticated and graded 10. 

I often carry an index card with me at shows to examine Mantle signatures. 

I also expect to see an impeccable, careful "c" in "Mickey" or at least a semi-slanted one, as in your example. 

Beware the "banana M" Mantles, of which there are tens of thousands in the marketplace. 

When in doubt, stick with JSA, PSA/DNA, Beckett and Upper Deck Authenticated pieces. 

Permalink Reply by Steve on September 3, 2024 at 6:02pm

Funny you should mention this, I thought it was good as well.  Your tip about the line under Mickey, extending below Mantle, guess who shared that tip with me?  The man himself.  Mickey shared that with me many years ago, I always remember it.

Permalink Reply by AustinCollector on September 3, 2024 at 6:12pm

Incredible. That's a great story! I studied Mantle signatures for many years, and yet never observed the alignment. It had to be shown to me. Once it was pointed out to me, I can't not see it. The forgers seem to have mostly missed that, fortunately for collectors. 

Permalink Reply by CLiebl on September 3, 2024 at 6:16pm

Wow, thanks guys! Appreciate the in depth review and thoughtful responses! I haven't been studying his signature nearly as long as either of you, but the "c" is what was throwing me the most. Kind of looked like an "l" but not quite. I've seen some authenticated versions with the c not "fully completed" but didn't know if there was something else going on! 

Permalink Reply by Steve on September 3, 2024 at 6:22pm

I agree about the c, it can throw you off when it doesn’t look exactly like it normally does.  He was so consistent, but occasionally, there are slight variations in certain letters.  I remember getting him at his second to last show at the Riviera Hotel in Vegas.  After sitting and signing for hours, when he got up to walk out, people were applauding, just as they did when he arrived.  On the walk from the signing table, several people walked up and put a ball in front of him for his signature, and he happily signed.  I was standing very close and watching and I can guarantee you that those signatures were not nearly as nice as those sit down signatures.

Permalink Reply by AustinCollector on September 3, 2024 at 6:38pm

Get anything good signed? During that era I was pulling my hair out wanting to go to a show, or somehow raise the money for a UDA-signed baseball, but I was just in my late teens and couldn't swing either the travel or the cost. I remember reading about those shows in Tuff Stuff and SCD, though. 

Permalink Reply by Steve on September 4, 2024 at 9:26am

I did!  A 16x20, an 11x14, an 8x10, and a couple of baseballs.

Permalink Reply by AustinCollector on September 3, 2024 at 6:29pm

Good eye -- with the C there should be a reasonable range of tolerance for variations. In my experience, the C is either drawn slowly yet confidently, or more like a "half C" -- yours is well within a range that I would be comfortable with. 

Another characteristic I look for is a slight anomaly before the letters E and Y...Not a pause, upstroke or downstroke, but a very slight, gentle wrinkle of sort  just where the space evolves into the letter Y. 

The ball in your photo exhibits moderate toning, but it's even and not blotchy. Some collectors may find this appealing, as the ball has pretty much aged into what it's going to be barring any moist spills or structural damage (unlikely). I like perfect 10, Snow White baseballs as the next collector, but the downside is the potential for aging and toning. If I buy a perfect, white baseball, it can only get worse. There's something about a ball where the signature and condition are fully set, if that makes sense. 

Permalink Reply by CLiebl on September 3, 2024 at 6:48pm

I've always noticed the slight "bump" from e to y also, but actually haven't spent much time looking to see if that is also present in forgeries, as I usually see the "M"s and immediately move on.

I hear you on the toning! I usually look for as perfect of a ball as I can find. I have one bright white ball of his already that I'm going to display with a Williams and DiMaggio, now just thinking about another ball for a different display. 

Jealous of you guys having the opportunity to meet and see these guys. I met Ted when I was in high school, but he was already wheelchair bound by then unfortunately. Still a wicked cool moment that I'll never forget! 

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