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Authenticity is Everything
Paul & Ringo Signed CD's
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ru007 on
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So are you saying the the ones Perry and frank Gave a thumbs up to are forgeries? Who do we believe now? I’m so confused about this thread I honestly feel like giving up all together
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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What do you see in the scans Steve composed for Ballroom with the comments made about the 2 columns?
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Honestly I can see the similarities, but I’m not an expert like you all, 90% of my items are in person so I kinda get how graphs change, when there’s a crowd me and my other grapher friends would always say try to be the first 5 cause after that the sigs get a bit distorted, even when it’s a sit down they do change a bit as well towards the middle/end I guess it’s best to make your own decisions on rather to trust the forum or the TPAs, right now for me it’s a coin flip for me
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Well, I am certainly no expert with this name. I think it best to take all information into account, including your own opinion/eyes, to arrive at a determination. :)
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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on
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This is a very unusual situation. I hadn’t seen anything quite like it before. You shouldn’t give up on anything based on this.
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+1
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Ru007,
No art or collecting field is harder to authenticate in than autographs, yet experts in every other field make mistakes as well.
Ballroom feels confident that the ones he pointed out as forgeries are not real. I agree with him, as do others. There are those who don't and those who aren't sure yet. Now that autographs with these characteristics have been pointed out, Perry, Frank and others may agree that they are likely not real after they re-examine them, or they may think they're fine.
This is normal. It can take time to figure out whether an autograph style is genuine or a very skilled forgery. Back in the early 1990s, Frank Caiazzo realized that Beatles autographs from a highly respected source back then must be forgeries. The source was Joe Long, and the most respected dealers and auction houses, including Christie's and Sotheby's, innocently sold them since the early-mid 1980s.
Reputable dealers and auction houses with meaningful guarantees of authenticity gave refunds to their customers who bought these forgeries, but it took a few years for many to be convinced that they were not real.
A similar thing happened with Elvis Presley autographs coming out of Europe from the middle and late 1990s into the early 2000s. A few Elvis specialists, including Roger Epperson and Rich Consola, figured out that they were likely not real, and Roger went to Europe to try to track down the source, all on his own dime.
When Roger found the source it showed beyond a shadow of doubt that they were forgeries, and reputable dealers and auction houses with meaningful guarantees of authenticity honored their guarantees, and didn't knowingly sell them anymore.
In the case of these Ringos, if experts in Beatles agree overall that they are likely not real, those with meaningful guarantees of authenticity will honor their guarantee and refund their customers' money. So those who buy from them will be protected and not be out what they paid. Some collectors buy from such dealers, some buy as carefully as they can and take the risk themselves, and some do both.
If a collector bought one from a seller without a meaningful guarantee they probably have to absorb the loss themselves unless they paid by PayPal or the right credit card within six months.
Hopefully, they won't try to sell it to an innocent party. If a member here does, and we find out about it, they better be into being tarred and feathered.
All you need to do to protect yourself against forgeries, 007, is buy from reputable dealers and auction houses with meaningful lifetime guarantees of authenticity. You may pay more in some cases and you still should do your own authenticity research before or shortly after you buy, but you'll get what you paid back if it turns out what you bought is not real.
Any collector who bought one of these Ringos from Perry Cox, Frank Caiazzo, or any one of the many dealers with meaningful 100% money-back guarantees are fully protected if the Beatles marketplace determines that these are forgeries.
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+1 Well said Steve.
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My only problem is that maybe this members macca and ringo really are legit and we’re all bashing it even when Mr.Cox chimed in and stood behind it, I understand new information comes out all the time and authenticators need to be not 1 step ahead but blocks ahead of the forgeries but maybe this memebers items are 100% signed and authentic,
just my 2 cents even tho it’s probably only worth a penny
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Ru007, your "2 cents" are worth a ton. You're asking questions and voicing concerns that many collectors should think about and ask about, but many don't have the courage to bring up.
It's really hard to be even a step ahead of the forgers, because it usually takes numerous examples of a great forgery to figure out it's not real.
If I only saw one or two of these Ringos at question over a period of months I'd probably think that they were A-OK; just unusual variations of a genuine Ringo. It's the repeated examples of similarly uncharacteristic autographs over time that would start to concern me.
The work Ballroom did by comparing their characteristics to similar concerning and known genuine Ringos, researching their sources, selling prices, and the authenticity and selling prices of other autographs sold by the same sellers, dramatically sped up the discovery of these as being likely forgeries that need to be discussed and analyzed.
What you're seeing and experiencing is that we're all part of the process of catching forgeries...and making sure that as few likely genuine autographs as possible are damned.
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Thanks for the info and reply, I still believe Frank and Perry are very knowledgeable and I stand behind there opinion on these items as being authentic, I don’t mean in anyway to negatively dismiss your opinions I’m just defending this members items and Frank and Perry’s opinion and the Loa/ coa,
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