Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on August 16, 2012 at 3:11pm

Hello Forum

I thought I best put a response into some of the things that have been posted on these pages with reference to Garry King and Adrian Longden and AFTAL

My name is Gary Harvey, a UACC Registered Dealer RD245 based in Barrow in the UK

I have Collected Autographs for 35 years and been a UACC Registered Dealer and member for over 20 years.

I have collected Autographs in the UK, Europe and NYC, Texas and Los Angeles.

I have worked and lived in London for 9 years. I have collected there in my free time and know a lot of Collectors and Dealers in UK and Worldwide.

I have collected with Roger Epperson in Texas and in London and we are good mates.

I also know Garry King and he is a friend also.

I also know a few Registered Dealers of AFTAL, but I chose at an early stage of their formation not to join their association. My reasons were personal at the time and they have not changed recently. Especially with happenings over this affair I beleive I made a good decision.

I have contacted Roger Epperson, Garry King and Steve Cyrkin recently with information that I feel relevant to what has gone on with reference to the Michael Jackson autographs in question.

 

I also feel I need to state a few points for other readers of this Forum

 
Jason Thanos has stated he is one of a very few ‘ IN PERSON’ Dealer / Collectors in UK

to which I must disagree...............

I fall into this genre Jason, and I have to state that I believe there are over 25 Dealer / Collectors in UK that collect Autographs themselves and sell via the usual channels.

I can name them if you want me to Jason ?

The reason I collect In Person is to help and aid authentication purposes. I could pay people to collect for me but I cannot sell In Person signatures to Collectors if I have not collected the item myself !

I also believe this is why other Dealers do this and it also gives the Dealer the knowledge of other Collectors out there, and perhaps they can also meet collectors who are selling the gains.

I have purchased items on my travels from Collectors at the point of signing. It’s a good method of buying authentic signatures. You know the item is real as you stood next to the guy as he got his items signed.

Recently the UK has gone crazy for Autographs, Collectors sell to Dealers and Collectors sell on eBay etc. The market is now flooded with low priced Autographs of celebrities in all fields, Music Film TV and Sport etc

Any Film star that performs in UK Theatre in London is swamped with requests for autographs. The same Collectors and Dealers go every night and have collecting competitions for how many you can get in one night !

Any celebrity that sets foot on the streets of London is attacked by numerous Autograph collectors armed with felt pens and photographs.

The more items on the Market lowers the price!     Doesn’t it?   Simple Maths

I mentioned this to another UK Collector / Dealer recently and he laughed. He had 20 Jason Statham’s collected at one Film premier by himself and his workers.

I stated did he not think un leashing all of them on the market in one go reduces the price, and he said no the more the better !

False economy in my opinion, as I know 2 UK Dealers that folded their business recently as they had far too much stock and could not sell

So this brings us to the Rarer and Collectible items like Michael Jackson, Paul McCartney, Harrison Ford, Robert De Niro netc. These people don’t sign as much and are not as accessible and are very collectible and command higher prices.

So this means rarity value and more $$$$$$ or ££££££££

London and the UK goes crazy for this type of Celebrity. Collectors and dealers chase the vehicles, fight each other, double cross their friends ! Its anything goes for the chance of a signature or photograph with that celebrity.

Therefore it’s obvious that forgery will occur to make profits and unknowing collectors will buy what they see as a good deal or a fair price for a rare item.

eBay if full of fake McCartney’s and Jacksons etc and eBay does not seem to want to control the fakes, and not only from the UK, this is a worldwide problem.

Thank God we have people on this planet that are prepared to research these items and help other collectors / dealers.

Roger Epperson has researched for years now and is very high in the field of Music signatures. I have asked him in the past for his opinion on items that I was unsure about and I value his opinion. He taught me secrets of spotting Fake Elvis Presley Autographs to which helped me numerous times.

Garry King has researched also in various fields, he has taught collectors / dealers also. But not Music which is unfortunate on this occasion with the Jacksons.

Collectors have the opportunity to get an opinion on any Autograph if they are unsure.

Many people offer Authentication services. I offer a free service for Authenticity but I can only quote on Celebrities I have obtained myself, I will not make any judgment on anyone I have never obtained personally

So I now come to the Authenticity of the Jacksons in question from Adrian Longden, I cannot doubt Adrian met Jackson as I know him and I collected with him over a period of 5 years. The last time we collected together was over 5 years ago in England and LA.

He has travelled all over the World collecting and has the proof. When I knew him very well he was a good reliable collector

I have not seen him in England for over 4 years, since I saw him at Jack Nicholson’s London hotel in 2008. I believe he collected in NYC and LA since 2007

Can I state I heard from LA collectors that Jackson was signing big time in LA, and I purchased 8 items from one LA collector at that time. They were $80 each at that time 2 months before his death.

There were many collectors following him around demand was high

What I also heard was that Jackson’s security guards were taking items off collectors and taking them inside the Hotel / locations for Jackson to sign because of the high demand

Now this is Risky……… as most Dealers know the Beatles stories from the 1963 – 64 UK tours. Items sent into the band were signed by Roadies and sometimes in the hand of a Beatle signing for another Beatle

Could this have occurred with these items Adrian has passed around for sale to Dealers via Dominic ?

Was Adrian and other collectors in LA getting that many signed it did not matter how they were obtained ?

They assumed all were Authentic? All items passed into Jackson and returned signed were real……..  But unfortunately they are not !

I believe they are not genuine and Roger and Steve have gone out of their way to prove this is the case on this Forum

The examples Roger has provided prove to me that the examples sold by Adrian are not genuine. This is so disappointing for me and I must say I feel sorry for Garry King as he has trusted the word of another Dealer as Authenticity in his offering of these items for sale.

What I can state from what I have read on this forum is thing need to change.....................

Can I propose these points……………………

A Dealer who advertises ‘Collected In Person’ must only list the item if it was collected himself

Wherever in the World you sell your Autographs, surely a sign of a good Autograph Dealer is to know his stuff!

He must be able to provide Signing details i.e. Date / Venue etc.

COA if issued should provide these details ?

If not obtained In person he should provide all other relevant details that he knows about the item, including the person who obtained the item

 

This should be the Standard from now on guys !

How does this sound ?

 

Also as I stated I know some good dealers on AFTAL, some I call friends. I will be amazed at their reactions to what has gone on regarding this Forum recently

If I had purchased any item or items from any Collector or Dealer and any kind of suspicion was cast I would not be happy having these items in my possession.

I would be looking to return these items to my supplier for a full refund and if any sold onwards I would have to take the loss and refund the purchaser

I am hoping that something good comes out of this and I look forward to keeping you informed in the future of anything I hear this side of the pond in the UK

If anyone has any comments please advise, I am eager to learn more and want to provide a good service to anyone who wants to buy items from me in the future

Thanks for your time guys

 

Gary Harvey   UACC RD 245

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on August 16, 2012 at 3:40pm

Gary

You never cease to amaze me.  I was telling someone today that you were here in Houston the day my son was born almost 20 years ago! 

First off thanks for the kind words but most of all thanks for that incredible post and the insight to UK collecting.  I know from experience that you are a mad man when it comes to racking the stars!

thanks again and keep us informed.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on August 16, 2012 at 4:17pm

You taught me a diffrent way Roger

Its not the Quantity its the Quality

For Gods sake Roger , its for us all, we wanna invest our hard earned dosh (money to you US guys ! ) and its not right that what you invest it in pure crap

Cheers for the words and does tht make me Dylans Uncle ?

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 16, 2012 at 3:52pm

Thank you Gary.  Bravo.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on August 16, 2012 at 4:17pm

cheers Mike

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 16, 2012 at 3:55pm

+1

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on August 16, 2012 at 4:17pm

Cheers Steve

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Permalink Reply by Travis Christenberry on August 16, 2012 at 3:13pm

If you go to the show, you probably will have to sign a disclaimer stating that you will not discuss the images or video that you will be viewing or you will be subject to a lawsuit. How much you wanna bet?

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on August 16, 2012 at 4:23pm

Roger, thank you for taking the time to post and explain the Michael Jackson items this afternoon.  I see exactly what you are referring to and I understand completely how you reached your conclusions.  Now here is my dilemma.

Let’s just say that I purchased a Michael Jackson autograph from Autografica.  And let’s just say that at this point of the discussion I am convinced that your analysis as an expert in authenticating rock and roll memorabilia is correct.  That I trust it more than the dealer that I may have purchased the autograph from who only contains a rock and roll inventory of five percent.  Would it be too unreasonable to ask for a refund at this point?  But wait a minute.  I have to prove that the autograph is not authentic in the face of AFTAL’s claim that it is authentic.  And if I want to see the proof I need to travel to England.

Now I am confident that if I were to contact Garry directly he would refund the money even if he is pressured not to as a case of principle.  But what if it were another reputable dealer that I purchased from?  And what if that dealer was without a conscience?  That is the problem with all of this.  We have no protection even though you, Steve and others are fighting like hell to keep us from being taken advantage of.

I am so glad that Gary posted a reply to all of this because he obviously respects both you and Garry and is not doing himself any favors by saying what he said.  Except, of course, the fact that he is exhibiting a degree of honesty and integrity that this hobby truly needs.

Thanks again to you, Steve and everyone else on this website for what they selflessly do every day.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on August 16, 2012 at 4:31pm

Gary H , Mate what I mean is actually trustworthy In Person Dealers people that also belong to some governing body , Uacc , Aftal etc .. A dealer that you can vouch for not just some geezer behind a stall selling with no knowledge or the geezer down the carboot sale.

Problem is this days everyone who gets an autograph calls himself a dealer its become a joke , In the UK anyway its crazy you have people that only come out 1 time a month and have never been outside more than 20 miles from their house and they call them selfs the daddy of graffs.

The word dealer this days is very easily confused .. And yes I confirm you are In Person not that you need my aproval but I state this so you dont think I ignore you lol.

Jason Thanos

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on August 16, 2012 at 11:33pm

Jason. No problems I do see your point now and you are correct
Many collectors have appeared recently In UK and after a few Film Premiers attended consider them selves a Authority ?

I have a saying ... Every Collector is a Wanna be Dealer !

As soon as they hit the streets they talk value they speak of the Rack ! Amazes me !
eBay is full of them selling items collected at Film Premiers and Music Awards

But the fakes appear too in amongst the good stuff is utter Crap or Garbage as you say in America

It's easy for a Collector to join a Society like Uacc and put themselves as a Uacc dealer on their listings
Garry King has enforced control of this here and watches for these advertisers in UK

They have been warned not to use the Uacc name if not a Registered Dealer and put their name and address in the listing for Uacc verification

Garry has done this pretty well and closed a lot of Wanna be Dealers down on eBay

Greed is killing this hobby and it's a shame Jason
Thanks once again for you message

Gary Harvey

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on August 16, 2012 at 11:37pm

Hello Forum
I forgot to state in my reply to Jason that although there are many Collector / Dealers in the UK , he actually is correct
Not all of them are linked to either the Uacc or AFTAL
Some of these guys fly solo and are not monitored and answer to NO Code of Ethics

Sorry for forgetting to add that

Gary Harvey

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