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NEWLY UPDATED 5.19.18 REWRITE Some of the Qualities of an Autograph Listed with an Early Attempt at an "Equation" for Evaluation (Results will vary of course - it must be customized and continued).

Some of the Qualities of an Autograph Listed with an Early Attempt at an "Equation" for Evaluation (Results will vary of course - it must be customized and continued).

ALL additions are welcome. This may be a futile endeavor to some, but is a stopped watch is correct twice a day then a flawed system will function if worked. I am trying to make a checklist or even an equation or set of equations to help decisions to be made regarding desirability/quality w/o emotion (often the downfall - the sheer sometimes blinding WANT) between LIKE items

So far we have had:

The Qualities of an Autograph:

Is the signed item vintage or more recent?

Is the signed item a marked official licensed product like an LP, Cassette, CD, DVD, promotional photograph/still (SP), ticket, etc., or something else - like a cheap copy photo? Book photo? Magazine? An 11x14 grainy copy image enlarged simply to grab $ or an 8x10 from the label/studio?  

If an LP, Cassette, CD, DVD etc. is this an original first release, a promo item, or a later re-release? If an SP, it is a recent copy print or vintage print from the negative? Was the photograph developed on single or double weight paper? Is the image candid? Is it unique or unpublished? Is it signed, stamped, or marked (©) by the photographer/designer/artist/studio? Is it a photograph of independent interest and value like the works of Mick Rock, Gruen, Shapiro, Gorman or the like?

What is the overall condition – folds/creases, water damage/rippling, spots/stains, tape, fading, framing restoration etc. considering the item, its age, rarity & other factors (has it been trimmed, etc.)? If an LP, are the vinyl and original inner sleeve present? Has the autograph been "helped", altered, "edited", or it is original as signed and intended by by the celebrity? Has it been restored and, if so, properly?

Is the autograph contemporary to the item or was it added later?

Is the autograph in pencil, fountain, ballpoint or fiber/felt tip? Paint pen/metallic? Other? What instruments/inks are usually encountered with this type of item from the period in question?

Is there a dedication? An inscription (if any is possible)? Is it dated? Is this signature usually accompanied by a date etc.? Are there additional features such as musical notations, sketches, doodles, lyrics, quotes/lines that are connected the the celebrity/role/music? This will add interest.

What is the condition of the autograph? Any smudging from the signing or later wear from storage (hairlines, scratches etc)? Has the ink changed color or faded? Take care with certain paint pens.

Is there optimal contrast and placement of the autograph with regard to the image or other features? Does the ink color clash with the item or sing? Does the autograph align with elements of the image and recede, rendering the signature less than noticeable, or is the contrast strong? Because of placement or pen? Does the autograph fight with the image or sit nicely? Is the autograph lost or is it overpowering? Is the placement, independent of the image, typical of the artist?

Is this a clear, typical example of this signature or it is unusual for the period of the artist?

Is the signature interesting/unusual/unique without the strength of the item? Is the item interesting and desirable without the signature (ideal).

What are the recent auction and sale results for similar material?

What is the frequency of similar material available with comparable presentation and/or condition? Do you see these items frequently signed?

In comparison with similar items for quality, is this mediocre, exceptional or something in between?

How does this fit in with other items you have collected using similar criterion? Is this or a similar item offered anywhere else online for more/less? 

I now add (with an attempt to quantify):

Continuation of Quality Assessment Regarding Autographs:

 

What is the (signed) product/form - LP, Cassette, CD, DVD, SP, SP (postcard), concert ticket, album page etc? Which is more desirable for the period?

 

Is the item truly vintage (as possible for the artist) - Y/N?

Signature:

Quality - A,B,C

Condition – A,B,C

Placement – A,B,C

Contrast – A,B,C

Dedicated/Inscribed/Other (sketch, quote etc.) – Y/N?

Dated – Y/N?

 

Signatures of superior form and quality/condition may override other weaknesses, but it must be strong.

Please add your thoughts, critiques, ideas, notions, observations and all.

Thank you, many like John and Eva have made wonderful additions.

Eric.

I have decided to add this bit from another thread on these subjects. This is also experimental but meant to be illustrative, thought inspiring...not exact. The data below has been rewritten twice since originally posted.

I tried to select some more or less equivalent Bowie SP's and assign them quality ratings (NOT grades) for comparison - A to D with "+'s" and even "-'s". This is a trial post - add/change/suggest - please! I feel this area is lacking in development and attention. An alarming number of my collector friends are paying well over lab photo prices for grainy 11x14 2nd gen pc prints and magazine pages with rushed, poor or problem signatures with a lack of qualities and contrast issues and I am trying to quantify this in some way to address this. And, yes, there are many ways to skin a cat. ;) And no, this does not address scarcity alone (understanding vintage or rare is often preferable and can overcome other issues), just some aspects of what can make quality. The more tangible ones to start. Maybe I am going about this the wrong way (!) - open to all suggestions. So many variables...what is your way?

NOTE: I was chatting with a friend in here about quality. I don't think I ever explained fully why I prefer the studio photo, the promo and vintage stamped photo etc.

I suspect most forgers produce many attempts, and then settle on one to sell. This is often an album page, a loose cut etc. or Playbill page etc; it would be very costly to practice or "produce" signatures on valuable vintage promo photographs or items. Same with dedications and inscriptions, which I also prefer. It is an area the forger often avoids. Apart from adding context, it is more to catch errors in. These things are not hard rules, obviously, but just one part of a...multi front defense. 

******May 19, 2018 Rewrite stops here*****

The information below contains errors and will be corrected in due course...

A, B, & C

A+: Vintage Official original 1976 release 11x14 (large) lobby card with full release and studio data, compelling/classic image from famous film, complimentary ink color, great placement and very decent contrast, with smooth beautiful very vintage 1979 signature. Photo by Chuck White. Would an inscription be better? To me, yes! More is more! (Note: this is actually printed backward, often a problem, but the image is so strong and the many other qualities more than compensate!).

A (strong): Good promotional label/studio marked 1st gen 8x10 lab photo still (look how crisp), b/w yes but © and with label info, sharp borders, awesome image, engaging and with superb contrast and placement. Pretty strong with almost full signature - some minor fuzziness. A lab photo has an inherent quality a magazine photo or news clipping does NOT. They are made to throw away, like many adverts. One lasts about a century with decent ink and care - guess which?

B+: Strong image. Vintage classic Ziggy, possibly Official vintage photo (looks 2nd gen from flat contrast and lack of darks/depth), candid pose (good in some cases, great here as this is The 1980 Floor Show (added desirability) - final Ziggy late '73), unmarked photo though, large rare vintage signature at typical slant, fair contrast at best. The vintage photo, signature, composition (great photo) and Ziggy image make this a B+ despite the contrast issue. At least it was not signed in black.

B (strong): Classic period/awesome pose but quite poor contrast (black on black) and placement, Not the best photo to get signed - something to think about when selecting. True, it is an Official promo with label markings, but overall not greatly remarkable apart from vintage signature and quality 1st gen image with photographers name/label etc. It's a great B. Not a C+ because it is an Official label promo photo and a great image - I'd take it any day over the B below.

B-: Unknown "pop" period image (Glass Spider), grainy, strong signature and placement, but contrast a bit impaired by the design behind it - too busy and distracting. Mediocre image. Were this a 70's image it would fare much better. Technically this overtakes the one below on at least two counts

C-: Probably unofficial (likely 2nd gen photo or less from tight odd crop and slight softness), unmarked, printed backwards, less than stellar contrast/placement, messy signature, uncompelling image, thumbtack hole.

D (Damaged): Newspaper cut/clipping, poor/stained condition (ripped/taped), a bit of scarce handwriting but not enough to overcome obstacles. Newspaper not permanent and will yellow/crumble. Folds and worn creases also often come into play in these cases.

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Replies to This Discussion

This thread has gone off on a bit of an "insider" tangent. Would it be worth starting it again Eric?

One thing I'm not sure about is whether you are trying to prove a link between actual realised prices and the qualities of an autograph/autographed item or whether you are trying to identify the qualities that ought to drive prices.

From auction results and the prices charged by dealers I think it would be hard to prove a link in all but very general ways (e.g. LPs signed at the time being far more valuable than album pages signed recently). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say.

By the way, I was also a big T. Heads fan back in the 80s and saw them and the Tom Tom Club at Wembley in 1982. I'm sure I would like them now (particularly Fear of Music and Remain In Light) but unfortunately I never bought the CDs and my LPs are all in storage.

 

Hi,

thank you. This is not really an attempt to prove a link or relationship with prices/dealers. It is a system in the works to help collectors make sound decisions based on good data. And to get info out there - many don't know what doubleweight paper is, or that a copy photo far removed from the neg is less desirable than a label photo and so on. By showing how I make my decisions I hope to share some information (and minre you guys for more!).

Hi Eric

Apologies for going off on a tangent myself re prices. After re-reading your post I can see that you were not talking about prices - at least not directly. 

I fear it may be hard to whip up enthusiasm for the discussion as desirability is so subjective. For me it is far more important that an item is unusual in some way or has great provenance whereas others may prefer something standard in appearance and say that provenance is "thin air" compared to what they actually have in their hands. In the case of the Beatles or Led Zep I would obviously not buy a highly unusual album page with great provenance ahead of a signed vintage LP of course but then that is the head ruling the heart - i.e. potential resale value above personal passion.

I am not sure why you don't mention provenance by the way. I would have thought this was one of the biggest factors driving desirablility. Taken to an extreme, the Double Fantasy Lennon signed for Chapman would not be more desirable than a DF signed for someone else if provenance was not of key importance.

I guess you just looking to concentrate on the signed item on a stand alone basis and in terms of its physical appearance but I'm not sure that is realistic.

Thanks Eva. It is a work in progress. Some collectors I talk to don't factor much of any of this. Others pay $$$ for cheap degraded/elnarged 11x14 PC prints. I am just trying to help further discussion of what qualities make for a good item.

Provenance is hard to add because it is really a wide topic. I thought it best to stick with what is seen/shown. It is also not as easily proven in many cases. However, thank you for adding it! It is ...another quality!

Hello,

I am not sure what you were discussing is provance, at least in the Lennon murderer example.

I truly appreciate your additions :)

Eric

Thanks John - you must have some great stories from what I gather!

also to add to this are lyrics add to the price of the itiem.if an artis added them like loe redd wrote wild side or johnny cash walk the line .these are just examples

pete rose charges more for writing i bet on basbell

and yes eric is correct to many people dont factor in a 1$ photo compared  to a record label promo photo or mick rock or bob gruen photo or a rare type of allum they all add to the value.

look at some of the stuff i posted for sale were the poster or program unsigned can sell for 500$

Brilliant - thanks John! Lyrics, doodles, sketches, musical notations (imagine if one could get Gilmour to write out those 4 notes from Shine On...) and the like are all qualities that can add value. Great addition. I found a Bowie SP I sold, an Elephant Man gelatin silver print by...Ron Scherl (SP?)? was worth about $400 without the Bowie signature. I love to find out as much as I can about things to add even more qualities, and also not leave $ on the table.

to give u an example im getting 4 k for signed johnny cash guitars im 5 k for the ones he wrote i walk the line on.

on my talking heads it says burning down the house.

there are some artist that flat out wont add lyrics or anything.

angus used to do the sketch of him that adds alot of value.

so yes ,there are stuff to consider besides the autograph.the rareity of the signed itiem

Thanks again, John, I have added your suggestions to the main text and expanded another section. Like the Strasberg Method, I make no claim thses suggestions are the only way to go about things, just one way.

Getting back to provenance, Wlikpedia defines it as "the chronology of the ownership, custody or location of a historical object". I'd say the Chapman "Double Fantasy" LP is one of the best examples of provenance (or, more to the point, its importance) that you could possibly get.

I genuinely appreciate what you're doing here Eric. I only hope more people chip in.

Exactly, the importance. In our context, the chain of custody is often used to help establish (PROVENance) authenticity and this can be problematic (Mal, Mamma Jean etc.). It is for this reason provenance was left out.

Thank you ! :)

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