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Permalink Reply by Dane on August 20, 2012 at 4:44pm

My understanding is that PSA stopped doing the "auction certification" type things about two years ago, since sellers (not the auction house) were claiming the accompanying certificates as PSA LOAs.

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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on August 21, 2012 at 1:50pm

  So all the Auction LOA's I got over the years that said "PSA Has Deemed this time in X auction to be Authentic" should not have been interpreted as PSA Certified?   I guess all the "sellers" are at fault for not figuring out that an auction PSA Letter is not really a PSA Cert...?  Frankly, that doesn't make much sense .

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 21, 2012 at 11:58am

As I understand it, it's rare for an item that's PSA/DNA pre-certified to fail full authentication. It definitely happens, though. In-person authentication may show things that PSA didn't notice from the image sent to them by the auction house, and these things may not have been picked up by the auction house's authenticators. (Not all auction houses are approved for pre-certification by image.)

In any case, every piece must be sent to PSA for full authentication so PSA has to put their daub of synthetic DNA on it, and so they can image it according to their standards.

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Permalink Reply by David Jackson on August 21, 2012 at 1:59pm

yeah its confusing.

I use the PSA Quick Opinion, but even they get it wrong and that a fact I'm personally sure of is why i say that.

I think they dont wanna take a risk on some stuff so they just say "not likely genuine" or "unable to render an opinion". Which in the latter at least they give you a refund.

Overall the pro's outway the cons with it in my opinion.

In also my opinion the only other thing PSA lacks is good customer service on the phone via their receptionist .

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Permalink Reply by DB on August 22, 2012 at 4:55am

with the old auction house loa one at least received a document that indicated the item had been reviewed (either by a scan or in-hand).  with a pre-cert you get absolutely nothing.  like a QO there are "weasel words" implied that upon a "full review", whatever the hell that means it may still not pass.  I beg to differ on Steve's usage of the word "rare" as I have never seen any documented evidence one way or the other.

One auction house suggested I keep a copy of the auction catalog page.  What ought to be distressing, and I have commented on this numerous times, is that PSA/DNA claim that their process review steps Includes A, B, C, D and so on.     It that's the case on pre-certs do they leave out B & D?   Joe Orlando never explained it except to claim that the way auction houses used their Auction House LOAs was incorrect but avoided the specifics & shortly thereafter '09 (i believe) stopped issuing them.

Since Mr. Zipper & Reznikoff & Epperson are also independent authenticators for R&R and I see a number of "pre-certs" on their respective items so perhaps they can shed some light on any differences in their process of evaluation outside the sole distinction of having a "signed COA" -vs- a catalog page that simply says "pre-certified".   I believe Epperson has indicated many times that he for the most part operates from an image.

This won't answer what PSA/DNA does but it might be a step in the right direction.  

If Bobby is around he ought to be able to answer the question as to whether or not PSA/DNA on a precert operates from the image and/or depending on the type of item has the actual item in hand.

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Permalink Reply by DB on August 25, 2012 at 2:35am

nice part about history is it is searchable.  However, I don't think we've move forward on credibility as I keep going back to it's nothing more than a gimmick to obtain more money from a collector in order for them to receive a "formal" COA or LOA as the case may be.  Need to go back in and see if we ever nailed down the claim that if you didn't upgrade your auction house coa then it would not be considered a valid certificate of authenticity.

Comment by DBon October 17, 2010 at 11:49am   half time - It would appear that PSA's claim of "it will" pass has created a delemma for them. Just like auction house loa's did and I still pause based on their claim of prior AHLoas not being valid if they didn't get a full LOA. The same logic can be applied here. Obviously they want to have you spend more money to obtain the full certification.

To quote Bobby from the Prior thread as bill identifies, "When RR Auction issues a COA with your winning lots free of charge, we are stating that the autograph is authentic, the autograph was purchased at www.rrauction.com, and that you have 100% money-back guarantee forever. For many of our clients, this COA is all that is needed and they could care less about anyone else's opinion. The Certificate of Authenticity that accompanies every signed item is good for the life of the piece regardless of owner.

When a third party issues a LOA for a fee, they are giving you their independent expert opinion in writing that they believe the autograph to be authentic. These optional certificates can be excellent purchases if you intend to re-sell your autographs. Many dealers and collectors buy them after our auction in order to bolster the re-sale value of their purchases. ".

  Comment by john reznikoffon October 17, 2010 at 10:56am

As a PSA and JSA authenticator i make it very clear that if I am authenticating by scans, there is someone on the other end who I trust to determine whether or not the ink is "live" . I often ask RR to send items to me that I feel I need to see in person. Sometimes I need to see proportion to the entire item or various other attributes that a live examination only can provide. I have done many court cases, and quite successfully I might add, on shape-ticating alone. There is much more to it other than shape though. What is funny about this all is that a major protector of forgers , and one outspoken on third party, recently certified an obviously printed Calvin Coolidge letter (see her mans blog on this site on this subject) and his certificate says he examined the item in person????? Hmmmmmm. For the record, any item that has my name in the description in RR, was indeed examined by me. Of course what you can't see are the dozens of items I killed.

 

  Comment by Bill Panagopuloson October 17, 2010 at 10:14am

Well, PSA guarantees it will be certified if sent in, so it is de facto certified. It's all over except for the check-signing.

 

Comment by Bill Panagopulos on October 17, 2010 at 10:07am

No, Steve - the pre-certification discount is guaranteed for 30 days to get them in the door to "trade up".

If what you said were true, the pre-certification, and therefore the autograph's authenticity, becomes null after 30 days.

What a concept! Renew your COA every 30 days or else your autograph becomes fake! Now there's a money-maker!

Comment by Bill Panagopulos on October 17, 2010 at 9:59am

In my opinion, a COA backed by nothing more than the opinion of the signer is useless. Money talks, bulls_it walks. That's why I wrote a week or two ago that I'd rather have an R&R money-back COA than a fist-full of PSA certs.

Only one third party authenticating company puts its money where its mouth is: PASS-CO, whose headquarters just happens to be down the road from R&R. They examine everything first-hand, and offer either five-times the cost of the authentication or $5,000 if they're wrong (whichever is least). I know both of their top authenticators and would stand them up against the best PSA or JSA has to offer.

Comment by  Steve Cyrkin on October 17, 2010 at 9:44am

DB, I couldn't agree with you more. I'd like to find out how often an auction pre-certification comes in that's rejected. What's really important to remember, though, is that I believe these pre-certifications are only guaranteed for 30 days after the auction.

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Permalink Reply by DB on August 25, 2012 at 2:47am

I also know we have gone over these claims before...

Comment by DB on October 17, 2010 at 2:09pm

I reported on that 4-step process and I am only going to highlight the 1st step while summarizing step 2 - 4;

STEP 1: EXAMINATION
•Ink/Medium Analysis
•Autograph Structure Analysis
•Object Evaluation
•Side-By-Side Comparisons *
• Video Spectral Comparator (VSC4) * - A powerful workstation designed to examine questionable documents and autographs using sophisticated color and infrared imaging, magnification, coaxial lighting, and side lighting on-screen.
The VSC detects: ■Erasures■Reveals masked and obliterated signatures■Differences in ink types
■Other extraordinary tampering * When Necessary

STEP 2: ANTI-COUNTERFEITING - marked with invisible ink
STEP 3: CERTIFICATION - COA or LOA generated.
STEP 4: DOCUMENTATION - available online for verification

Thus if I am obtaining a Pre-Certification or Pre-Cert with Clubhouse Desijmation from PSA/DNA that "Will" pass as they have broadcast and claim then what part of 1 is not being done. It would sound like all of it especially if we are basing it on 1. a scan but 2. relying on ink analysis from R&R (even Rez has indicated such) then somewhere along the line there is;
a. No credibility whatsoever in these conflicting statements
b. Sounds like (and I know I have said this before) like the Old Auction LOA with a new name.&
c. There then is a significant risk with the pre-certified resulting in it coming back as non- authentic regardless of the R&R COA as who wants to go thru that - not to mention the claim of "will pass"!

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