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Robert Edwards Auctions/Rob Lifson thanks third party authenticators.

Note To Autograph Authenticators: Thanks!
Published by Robert Lifson on Tagged Uncategorized
REA would like to take the time to express a special thanks to all the authenticators who have contributed to uncovering often ingenious and complicated fraud, and in the process protecting consumers. It’s a thankless job and these guys are often literally on the firing lines of retribution by those whose interests they cross. It is a given that these same authenticators sometimes make mistakes, sometimes even obvious mistakes. It is a given that authenticators sometimes do not agree with each other, or sometimes even change their minds at a later date (which can be very frustrating). That comes with the territory. We sometimes joke that if all of them ever agreed on the same autographed item, we’d have to declare a new holiday!

But at the end of the day, gentlemen such as Mike Gutierrez (who no longer authenticates but was the very first to uncover two of the most sophisticated and elaborate frauds in the field of baseball autographs, one involving an ingenious mixing of extraordinary authentic items with non-authentic items), James Spence of JSA, Steve Grad of PSA, Richard Simon, and many others, while at the same time making themselves targets of ridicule for every error they make, also help identify and put a huge monkey wrench into the plans of the most prolific professional forgers, and in the process help protect the entire market and the collecting world from the most ambitious and egregious fraud in the field. These authenticators play an enormous role in uncovering and stopping the most ambitious and dangerous frauds - some involving millions of dollars in forgeries - perpetrated by extremely sophisticated criminals, and we can’t help but notice that they really don’t any credit for this. In fact, some get a lot of flack. So we’d like to just say thanks to all the authenticators (as humans, flawed though you may be!) for the valuable services you provide, both to your customers and just as important, though far less understood, to the entire marketplace (ironically, even to your detractors). There will always be differences of opinion among authenticators, there will always be mistakes, and a mistake can be made on any given item, but without these authenticators on the front lines, we believe the collecting world would be in far worse shape, the market would be in disarray, and that forgeries would be the rule, as opposed to the exception.

This seems an appropriate place to provide a link to the REA blog post entitled “Autographs at REA or any other auction: Is Authenticity Guaranteed?” that is as relevant today as when we first published it on April 24, 2008, and that further elaborates our thoughts regarding the many merits (and flaws) of third party autograph authentication:

http://blog.robertedwardauctions.com/?p=83

Sincerely,

Robert Edward Auctions LLC

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/

December 2nd, 2010

Tags: Lifson, Third, authentication, forgery, fraud, jsa, party, psa

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Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 22, 2010 at 12:49am: Richard, in some cases they pre-certify from auction scans without seeing the item, but only where the trust the auction house's ability to determine it's not a copy, etc. They charge the auction house for that service, so I don't think that's digging into the collector's pocket.

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 22, 2010 at 12:59am: Louie,

You're right--collectors like you who have reputable experts they can go to for opinions don't need third-party authentication. But a lot of collectors either don't know those experts or don't have that kind of relationship with them.

And I agree as well that some of these conversations are getting tired. As for Bob Lifson's blogs that John posted here, I don't think they're tired and more of the same back and forth. REA is a highly respected auction house and what they have to say is important, whether pro or con third party authentication. Bob's catalogs are as big as phone books--he sees thousands of items every year

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 22, 2010 at 2:10am: Travis,

In your estimation, what is the percentage of boxing autographs you see offered these days with PSA/DNA or JSA authentication that are not real?

What is your estimation of the percentage of boxing autographs rejected by them that are real?

What's your estimate of the percentage of boxing autographs offered without their authentication or from reputable private and licensed signings that are real?

Same question, but exclude the ones offered by reputable boxing dealers.

Comment by Fuddjcal on December 22, 2010 at 10:00am: I appreciate the banter and think the letter is well thought out and makes perfect sense to what the autograph industry and 3rd party authentication is facing. I hear Travis's point loud and clear regarding PSA (boxing) & JSA too. They are the best we have and look at them and the mess they are. Seriously, his points are very valid for us novice collectors. While Autograph Alert does have some thread to it, personal insults not withstanding, They magnify every single typo and certed item that is a clear forgery.

Let's just stop and look at that for a moment. Of course they make mistakes. The way they correct them and converse with theier customers is non-exsistent. Certainly they have a business model of "our s*** doesn't stink", when it does stink. They can charge what they want with no explanation what so ever for their findings. At least they are better than a broken clock, right 2 times a day.

When you put it all into perspective, PSA & JSA are head and shoulders above STAT, GAI, AAU, Christopher Morales, TTA, Tony p (My Favorite Forgeries)., and of course the red headed step child of Authentication , The guy who started it all, that Forensic Document Guru, Dr. Nicholas BirdWreck.

We just want to see more accountability from the "LEADERS" and more corrections to crap they have authenicated, as well as their service and interacting with their customers and less back room deals with their best customers. Otherwise, they are GAI in the making. If PSA & JSA don't get their house in order they will "jump the Shark" too. Some people think they already have, but I'm willing to give them the benifit of the doubt in hopes that they'll pull their heads out of their a**** and right the ship a bit. I certainly respect the views on this blog and I appreciate guys like Steve & John, because for all the B.S. they put up with, they are right here for anyone to ask questions and answer to their detractors by not hiding behind a fake ID or website. That takes balls and for that, Fudd says Thank-you. Also Thanks to Travis and Bill who always have a great take on things. We are all in this fight together so let's not lose that perspective.

Comment by john reznikoff on December 22, 2010 at 10:44am: Fudd,

Thank you. that is very well put!

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 22, 2010 at 12:32pm: Fuddjcal,

My thanks, too.

Comment by john reznikoff on December 23, 2010 at 4:35pm: Travis,

We are about 20 questions behind you.....when are you going to answer? And thanks for complimenting PSA on getting the Liston right. We all appreciate it.

Comment by john reznikoff on December 23, 2010 at 5:10pm: Thanks again for complimenting them on getting it right! The rule rather than the exception. I guess you are worried about opining on the many questions posed to you. You might make a mistake? Ooops. Easier to criticize than put your neck on the line I guess.

Comment by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 23, 2010 at 5:41pm: Travis,

I've asked questions and comments on this blog and other blogs, like R&Rs, and in discussions. Not generally related to specific items, but for ways to improve third party authentication and for your opinions on accuracy, etc. But for the most part you haven't answered them.

You're under no obligation to answer any questions, of course, but these have been constructive questions; not just rehashing the same complaints you have about PSA and JSA in any venue here you can.

I couldn't figure out why you wouldn't discuss my questions and comments. But then I read what you wrote a few minutes ago:

"...but until I start Roste Boxing Authentication Service, I reserve the right to answer any questions about my service and how I authenticate, and the results of my authentication, which I would happily do if the service ever materializes, which it probably will soon."

Now I think I understand.

I think it would be great for you to start a boxing authentication service. You know you're stuff, and I think you'd do an excellent job. But readers of this forum need to realize that your constant pounding across this site of the same messages about PSA and JSA are coming from someone who intends to compete with them soon.

Comment by john reznikoff on December 23, 2010 at 8:55pm: Travis,
I hope you start a service. There is plenty of room and I am sure you will do a great job. I would certainly give you a try.

I would love to see the two major services respond and engage here, but it is easy to understand why they won't, not the least of which would be attacks on blogs by people with fake IDs and less than savory agendas.

As far as all the ingredients of a great service, well, I wish we lived in a perfect world. Please add peace in the Middle East and an end to world hunger for me.