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Is this J. Adams autograph from John Adams or who?

I bought this about 10 years ago and it was rather expensive. It is a clipped signature, and it was sold to me as a "John Adams" sig. I have had a couple people look at it recently, and I have my doubts now.

Opinions? I'd like to know who signed it.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 19, 2021 at 4:43pm

Actually, this appears closer to John Quincy Adams signature than John Adams.

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Permalink Reply by Old Toad on August 19, 2021 at 4:44pm

That's what I thought. Think I should try to get a pic of the back? It LOOKS fairly early 19th century due to the watermarks/postmarks. The tallest letter is about 7/16" tall. I personally write a lot larger than that, for what it's worth.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 19, 2021 at 4:47pm

If you can date the postmarks that would certainly help. Perhaps a location?

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Permalink Reply by Old Toad on August 19, 2021 at 5:27pm

I do not believe they are US postmarks. I think this paper predates the standard US postmark we know today (I was trying some research today.) That said, the sig is clearly over the watermarks. It is possible the marks are from the manufacturer of the paper. Even possibly a European manufacture for all I know. The book on ID for US paper watermarks costs over $200, so I'm not going there...

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 19, 2021 at 5:45pm

You may want to get in contact with Herman Darvick. He is a member of this site and has experience with Presidential autographs.

https://live.autographmagazine.com/profile/HermanDarvick?xg_source=...

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Permalink Reply by Old Toad on August 19, 2021 at 5:49pm

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on August 19, 2021 at 5:53pm

Let us know how this works out.

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Permalink Reply by Old Toad on August 19, 2021 at 6:37pm

Sure thing. Starting above the 2nd "A" in Adams, it looks like the printed word "Ferdinand". As an aside, Ferdinand VII of Spain was a contemporary of both John Adams and John Quincy Adams. I never tried researching this item before.

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Permalink Reply by David Lewis on August 19, 2021 at 6:45pm

Old Toad and Joe W., My opinion in this field and a cup of coffee……you would at least have a cup of coffee. I spent limited time checking out my old Charles Hamilton books and took a look at my 1791 J.Q. Adams legal document (only signed Adams , that is not even 1/2 inch tall), and there was plenty of room for a larger signature. From my observation's John for the most part did not connect the "A" to the "d" to the "a"…. it looks to me Quincy did. That being said the tremendous gap between the "d" and "a" in Adams is alarming. Joe is correct about Mr. Darvick…. If my memory serves I bought, Patrick Henry, Abraham Lincoln and my J.Q. Adams from him.

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Permalink Reply by Old Toad on August 19, 2021 at 6:50pm

Thanks for the reply. So neither one? This is kind of like looking for one small bug that got loose in the house. Frustrating at best. Unless it is an out and out fake, somebody took the time to clip it out of a larger doc, which we don't do today. And it could be an out and out fake for all I know.

My autograph collection is tiny. A few political ones, Reagan, Trump, Queen Elizabeth II, George H. W. Bush. And this one.

I have some entertainment ones, like the original cast from Star Trek, most of which I got in person. I even have a pic of me sitting on James Doohan's lap from way back when. Back then they would sign them, now you pay for the privilege.

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Permalink Reply by Herman Darvick on August 19, 2021 at 7:01pm

Deb, I have no idea who wrote this but in my opinion it was not penned by president John Adams nor president John Quincy Adams. It apparently was part of an address leaf to someone named "J. Adams" and the name was cut off the address leaf with apparently part of a foreign postmark. --- Herman