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Professional Insight vs actuality

My question here is to not start an argument but point out an issue I find in the autograph collecting world. Let's say a member of your family happened to attend the first home game of the 1952 Yankees season, obtain a program, hold onto it for 28 years to then have it signed in person by Mickey Mantle at a show, display it for another 30 years, and eventually pass it down to the next family member. Then you attend a show and have a PSA agent tell you the autograph is fake. At this point you can only imagine how offended I was at that time considering I know this autograph is real, the story, and it has been passed down. The reason I was desiring PSA authentication was for insurance values on my HO policy. After researching Mickey Mantle's forgery I've now realized that its a difficult signature to say yes or no to, unless you have a picture of Mickey Mantle at the show signing the program.

So my question is, when a supposed expert denies a truly authentic signature by Mickey Mantle does that not put up a red flag for the industry and the true professionalism of PSA or other companies in that industry. Can a player signing 500 signatures a one given day, not have the chance to make a odd or unusual signature because they are tired, distracted, or whatever may have caused the signature to stray from the norm?

I would like to get your comments and feedback! And also I would like to get your comments on value as I added it to my HO policy for a value of $600.

Thanks for reading!

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on November 5, 2011 at 5:17pm

can we see it?

Permalink Reply by Matt A. on November 5, 2011 at 5:21pm

I will gladly post a picture of it tomm after I get my camera back from a family member using it right now.

Until then, could I get a comment on my question........i figured I would get a request for a picture of the program but regardless of what anyone says about the picture tomm, I know the story of the program...I would like to get comments on my question....

Permalink Reply by Mike P on November 5, 2011 at 6:18pm

Assuming your story is legitimate, which I believe is, it all depends on the signature.  Authenticators get hundreds of items a day, and if the signature isn't consistent with their library of samples, it is assumed to be fake.  Don't forget, you visited a booth for authentication.  The agent is concerned about banging out opinions, doesn't have the time he/she would in an office with all exemplars on file.  We can't answer your question without seeing the signature, it all depends on how bad Mantle signed it that day for your family member.  Authenticators look for consistency and fluidity, especially with Mantle as his sig is one of the most forged signatures out there.  I hate to say it but in terms of buyer's confidence if you were to sell that program, your story would mean less than the paper the program is made of.  I'm not saying your story is fake, which I believe is 100% real based on what you said, but it's just that most "buyers of autographs" have 0% knowledge of the autograph they are buying, all they look for is a nice little COA and a shiny sticker slabbed next to it.  -Mike

Permalink Reply by CEE GEE on November 5, 2011 at 6:22pm
Hey Matt...love this thread...first off I understand your concern...for insurance purposes it makes sence...but as far as the leaders making mistakes its possible...I have said before and I will say it again I never get anything authenticated that I know is the real deal...there has been many times I have heard were this has happened to collectors from time to time...if your insurance is only asking for a PSA or JSA letter you may be out of luck...Richard Simon authenticates vintage items and he's very respected in the businesses so maybe you can go that route...I don't think these guys would purposely fail an item...remember all your doing with these guys is paying for an opinion...but if you could post a pic that would be great...I would like to check it out...
Permalink Reply by CEE GEE on November 5, 2011 at 6:33pm
I will like to add Mantle's signature had some slight changes in it....but the fakes stick out like a sore thumb...iam sure if you post a pic you can get a pretty good opinion here...
Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on November 6, 2011 at 10:41am

Matt, this is always a challenge.  for example, lets say a celebrity you desire signs something for you, with his/her opposite hand (maybe the other one is in a cast?). bear with me on this.  you witnessed this signature.  you KNOW it is legit.  but how can an authenticator possibly pass it when it is so unlike known examples?  now getting back to your situation.  Mantle was pretty consistent, but there are many celebs whose signing habits change like the weather.  it is impossible for them to be accurate all the time.  I have seen them pass signatures that are blatant forgeries (yastrzemski comes to mind), and also pass signatures that look like a two year old signed them (I have seen McCartney sigs like this).  they may indeed be real but if they are so far off what is known to be authentic, how can they in good conscience, render a positive opinion?  I honestly believe the people on this site each have some degree of expertise on their favorite autographs, so if they render an opinion, I would put more weight intot that, than someone that claims to be an expert on everyone.

If you would like an opinion on the Mantle, please put it up. there are several Mantle experts (I am not one of them) that will tell you why it failed, or why it shouldn't have.

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on November 6, 2011 at 10:51am

speaking of authenticating forgeries, I just found this on ebay, while I was looking at Piazza signatures. I own 10 signed Piazza balls signed from 1993 to 2006, a signed bat, and several signed photos.  All legit.  anyone familiar with mike's signature, please comment.  I think this is a joke........

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIKE-PIAZZA-PSA-DNA-SIGNED-1996-ALL-STAR-BA...

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on November 6, 2011 at 10:53am

for the record, this is what Mike's vintage (1996) signature looks like:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mike-Piazza-Signed-1996-All-Star-Game-Baseb...

compare it to the one in my previous post.  are you laughing?

 

Permalink Reply by CEE GEE on November 6, 2011 at 11:15am
Not to get off the Mantle subject but that Piazza style that was first posted looks nothing like the other being the only style of Piazza I have ever seen...that's like day and night...I really don't know where that style came from or ever seen it...that's a real head scratcher...
Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on November 6, 2011 at 12:08pm

no, didn't know you can do that.  but seriously, I have seen hundreds of Piazza signatures, and it did change over the years, but I really think they missed that one.  Its probably someone else.  even the Piazza forgeries are better than that.

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on November 6, 2011 at 1:37pm

Just a few thoughts...

  1. Professional authenticators should completely disregard the story behind an item unless it is documented with iron-clad provenance. Your story may be 100% true, but for every true in-person story, there is probably one pretend in-person story. Just look at some of the shady sellers on ebay with all of their "in-person" autographs that are obvious fakes.
  2. Certainly there is a great deal of natural variation in authentic signatures, but most signers have small consistent traits that authentic exemplars almost always exhibit. For example, whether Mantle was tired, drunk or walking while signing, they look for certain positive attributes. If those traits are missing, your item will likely be turned down.
Permalink Reply by CEE GEE on November 6, 2011 at 2:16pm
Well written Zipp

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