Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Travis Christenberry on August 8, 2012 at 8:45pm

I would pay money to see what Mike Aring would have to say about this discussion right about now.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on August 8, 2012 at 9:16pm

Guess we won't find out now.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by J.Seah on August 8, 2012 at 9:18pm

I second that Travis!! Miss his pushy and cocky comment!! I guess that makes the forum more interesting and entertaining!!! :)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on August 8, 2012 at 10:41pm

This forum is meant to help people out and help them buy real autographs. It was setup  by Steve to be educational . Not a soap opera.  Its sad that it turned to enterainment. Half of what is said is non sense and doesnt help people with the questions they are asking .

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Garry King on August 9, 2012 at 4:00am

That is a lot better! Forums need to be places where things can be discussed in a fair, way, and when it comes to autographs, they need to be discussed by those who have the skills, knowledge and experience to be able to show how or why something is either good or bad.

It’s never about, “I was there”, or “it does not look like the one I got from so and so”, it’s only about facts and facts alone based on provable evidence. 

But let me clear up a few things, as the previous post was deleted, and rightly so I think, so there are some questions that were answered but not seen by those on this thread. 

First, I don’t know Adrian, never met him, never spoken to him, and I only know a few dealers in the UK who have. I only started to hear about him when MJ died and I purchased those MJ’s you have seen from another dealer. I had previously been offered some MJ items before he died after the collector concerned had come back from LA and he told me how surprised he was at the number of items he had managed to get out of Jacko. I turned them all down, as I was not a MJ fan, and at that time, MJ was not selling well anyway, so I declined knowing that he had plenty If I needed any later. 

Not long later, when Jacko died I obviously called him up and bought some, and that is what you have seen on the site. I have left the sold ones on the site for the time being so that you can all reference them for the time being. Other than the Eastwood (still not confirmed), they are the only items i am aware of that came from Adrian

I am sure you have all read Adrian’s post, so there are a couple of points I want to make. Point one. Adrian has said that he collected these items with others, although I know none of these people personally but others will. But if they were all collecting at the same time, then they would all have the same signatures would they not? So I think we need to see these. Adrian also mentions video and photos too. So I ask him to post those on here and ask the others to post images of items they obtained at the same time. If they can all show the same signatures, then that may well resolve the issue one way or the other. 

Point two. We are all aware that MJ was being heavily drugged in the months up to his death, and Adrian mentions that these items were signed during that period and even outside of the medical centre. Drugs will of course affect the way a person drives, behaves and even signs, and this could certainly explain why he was signing so much as he may not have been behaving in his normal manner. And I understand that most of these items were signed whilst he was sitting in his limo, not in a crowded street or area. 

So again, if that is the case, then it could explain why these items do not have the accepted signature style that many deem authentic. 

It has been asked why I would buy them in the first place, when you cannot be sure that are genuine, or they do not compare directly with ones you know. First, see above, and second, as a dealer and no longer an in person collector (I used to do that 20 years ago, but pretty much gave it up as its too hard work!) I like to offer a broad range of autographs, so I therefore need to buy stock in from others, which of course includes those in person collectors, auctions etc. If I and other dealers did not do this, then you the collector would probably not be able to buy those sought after signatures of long dead actors etc that you crave. So we have to build up a relationship with other dealers, and much of that is about trust, just as you trust your wife not to screw your best mate, I trust my dealers not to screw me! 

Obviously we all make checks on things we buy, and that is how many of us learn more about autographs. If it’s a new star on the scene we may having nothing to campare it with anyway, so what do we do then? That is when the trust part comes in. I do meet with various dealers and collectors on a regular basis, contrary to previous reports! So we are able to swap information about stock and collectors too, and that is one of the main reasons why I recommend any dealer to join an association. AFTAL will often send around an email warning others known scams etc, so we do as much as possible to keep ourselves up to date.  

On the authentication point. Inline with every other dealer, I do not ‘authenticate’ my own signatures, but, every dealer issues a COA or similar certifying that it is authentic, and if there is a problem, then it can be returned. 

Offering an opinion, certifying an item, and authenticating a signature are three different things, and should never be confused. 

Now if I authenticated my own items, and it was called into question, I could then simply say ‘its real’ as I have already authenticated it as genuine! As we all know, there are people out there who will authenticate anything, so if and when the question arises we need to be sure that whoever says its fake does know what they are talking about, and is not simply making a quick comparison to one they have found online, as authentication is much more than that. 

The point about my online ebay ‘authentications’ is incorrect. I do not offer that service on eBay, but I do offer a quick yes or no opinion on any ebay item. When a purchase is made I will then take a look at the listing and give an opinion (not an authentication) on the item, the seller, the price etc, and tell the buyer if I would buy that item with my own money.  I also never authenticate an item from a scan, for many reason, but mainly because of the amount of very high quality printed or machine produced signatures that now abound (and i don’t mean Autopen or stamped signatures!). 

From Brendan “I still have this question. If Gary renders an opinion on Michael Jackson, are these the type of examples he uses? If not, what does he use since he doesn't obtain the examples himself?” 

This goes back to what is said in the first thread about authenticating. You should only ever be comparing like for like, and in the case of signatures, like for like means letter for letter, space for space etc. Comparing any signature must be done by using a signature from a similar time etc. So you should not be comparing a signature obtained on the hoof in say 2002 with one obtained when the signer was perhaps at a convention or sitting down in 2009. That is where some of the argument was wrong on the previous thread, people were simply making a comparison with anything they had got in their collection, without even knowing when or where the Eastwood was obtained. In fact I am still awaiting confirmation of that myself, as that item was purchased from a different dealer again but I do know that it came either from Adrian or a US dealer. 

If I was offered one of those to authenticate, then I could only compare it with known genuine examples from the same period (although I have never been asked to do this). So that would mean finding examples which were from the same period, which would mean looking at those which I believe to be authentic, which would bring us back to the Adrian examples again, so I would possibly refuse to do it as it, as those items I would be comparing it with would all have come from the same person that the one i was asked to authenticate! Which would not be the right way to authenticat it, are you still with me!   

With regard to other UK dealers having the same MJ items, well Adrian is a UK citizen who only travels to the USA to get autographs, so it makes sense that you would you see those same items over here but not in the USA? 

As I have previously said, I do not know Adrian, but if Roger has proof that of some fraud then I will be very keen to see it. I have also tried to speak with Gary Harvey (Barrow) this morning who I have know for some years, but no luck so far. 

To sum up, Adrian has stated that those items were signed in the months before MJ died, was with other known collectors when he obtained them, and has video and photo images to show he was there etc, so I think it must be up to them to let us see that evidence.

If these MJ items are wrong, then I am happy to hold my hands up and admit it. None of us are perfect, especially within this vast field of autographs, that is partly why Roger concentrates on music alone, but even so, If I gave Roger say a Humprey Bogart to authenticate, I am confident in saying that he could do the job because he knows how to authenticate in the correct way. By the same token, I could not think of any dealer who has not at some time unknowingly sold a fake item, its one of those things that can and always will happen, its how we deal with it that counts. 

Forgers are getting better all the time and using new techniques to fool even the best dealers, and that of course is the point, how many forgers are their out there that are churning them out right now and nobody even knows about them because they are so good. 

I can recall the Dave Frohman Peachstate Armstrong’s (yes and the Collins as well) they fooled a lot of people until Steve Z and others managed to work out exactly why they were wrong. Is the forger of those still out there? Has he learned from Steve’s own analysis? And there have been many other similar cases involving many well known dealers, but as forest said “s*** happens”  

Having worked with both the police and TS on various cases involving fake signatures, I know that its no good simply coming up with “well I think its fake because it does not look right compared to one I found on another dealers site” as I am afraid a court is only interested in the facts, so you need to prove in simple terms on paper, as to why you believe a certain signature is forged, and that has to be written down in such a way so that a layman can understand it and clearly see for himself how you have come to your conclusion. 

This whole thing started when someone simply asked about an Eastwood I had on eBay, and very quickly became an attack on myself rather than a debate about autographs. I have made a good many enemies in this business because I am often warning about certain dealers or sellers on eBay or elsewhere here in the UK. I have been instrumental in ensuring that some have even been put behind bars, removed from eBay or removed from our membership, and it think it likely that any one of those could easily have been fanning the flames on here. 

I could go on, but this post is already too long. Always happy to answer questions directly if need be.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by JXE on August 9, 2012 at 5:51am

If you don't authenticate itms on ebay, you should probably take the term "authentication" out of the titles, so people understand what they're paying for.

I don't understand the point about how you don't authenticate your items  for sale, you just certify that they are authentic. Wouldn't it be in your best interest to make sure every item you are selling is real? For the sake of analogy, the experts like Roger Epperson for music or Phil Sears for Disney put the same work into authenticating their inventory as they do authenticating submissions that are sent in. That's why they are globally known as a shop where you can buy anything and feel confident in your item.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on August 9, 2012 at 7:30am

Again, you missed the point of the question asked. However, I waded through your answer (with tall sewer boots on) and received the information I was wondering about. Again, you weren't asked about certification of the items. Just the exemplars used. It was Just a thought since you offer that service.

You are correct that signatures must be compared era for era. As any expert should do. However, the question was, what are you using as examples. Now we know, you are using items that you bought from a certain "circle" of collectors.

I'm quite sure that there are some people who have some authentic MJ items signed at the same time as the items in question. Maybe they will post images of them for you to see. Steve, you have a database of images from that era correct?

As far as MJ being "drugged" at that time. From videos I have seen, he was able to perform at a pretty high level. Still the "drugged-up" defense is one that we have heard before on this site. That should be expected though. Again, if someone shows examples which are respected as authentic. It will be fairly obvious as to any variations. Regardless, the signature's "tells" will be there for MJ experts to utilize.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mick Taylor on August 9, 2012 at 4:41am

Very true Anthony

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by JXE on August 9, 2012 at 5:32am

It looks like he was either banned or he deleted his account. Which is a shame either way, because he was one of the greatest contributers to the board. His authentication was second to none, and I for one depended on his opinion before buying certain items.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mick Taylor on August 9, 2012 at 8:18am

I  personally hope he hasnt been banned

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Garry King on August 9, 2012 at 8:48am

Brandon "However, the question was, what are you using as examples. Now we know, you are using items that you bought from a certain "circle" of collectors"

I think you must be reading a different post to mine, as i never said anything about using items from a "certain circle of collectors". If i need exemplars i find them from my own files of signatures that either i have got myslef, or from R and R or similar. I would not, indeed could not use the ones that i have or others have from Adrian as exemplars, as that would just be plian stupid.

It was a long post yes, and i apologise for that, but there were a lot of things that had to be answered, but you did not need "tall sewer boots to wade through it". That is only once again trying to bring it down to the level of before.

I want to get to the bottom of this so that we will all know for sure what and where those MJ's came from (and others too).   The drugs thing was not a defence, i was merely putting forward a possible reason why they may be different, nothing more. You cannot simply only look at the points you want to include, you have to look at the whole picture and base the verdict on that.

I spent some time on the phone with Roger early this morning, and he has already sent over hi res exemplars that he suggested i use. They all come from the right period, which is what i said i needed before it is possible to do any comparisons.

I am about to process those through photoshop so as to make proper comparisons, but the things that Roger pointed on the phone certainly do appear to be correct... but i want to do the job correctly, and don't intend to jump the gun.

I have not stepped back from this, shouted, balled, or abused or defamed anyone, i just want to get to the truth, simple as that, as we will all benefit from that.

Both myself and Roger agree on many points about this, so we are not pulling in opposite directions, and i fully expect to have my own view on these soon. I understand where many of you are coming from with this, and it would be easy to simply agree with all that has been said, but that is the easy route, and i have never been know for taking the easy option.  

 

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on August 9, 2012 at 9:08am

I hope it all works out! Hopefully, you and any harmed buyers will be able to obtain refunds if the opinions rendered here about Adrian and his material turn out to be accurate.

I'm afraid that it's going to turn out to incorporate more than just Michael Jackson though.

I was wondering if the Harrison Ford in question came from Adrian as well?

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• …
• 71
• Next ›
• Page