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Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)

This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread.

That thread; proposed;

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

and it seems to have merit. However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean. There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.

Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.

Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar. I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book. Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.

Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications; ... indisputable work. It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.

I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso. It is thru the posting of perceived hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory. I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos.

I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent. it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory. I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.

6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;

R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).

R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item. The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos. Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible. If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on October 24, 2012 at 5:03pm

Yup. The secretary ruined a lot of good items including group signed items.

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Permalink Reply by DB on October 24, 2012 at 5:22pm

I'd like to think not purposely since they were "authorized signers" but I continually wonder what they were thinking vis-a-vis today's world of authentic signatures.

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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on October 26, 2012 at 7:35am

Great new examples of authentic Heston's, Mike. Very nice items. I have believed Carol Lanning was the signer, but never had any real evidence for it. I wouldn't call it conclusive - it just seems like the case has been built up that more likely than not it was Ms. Lanning.

I do see a number of authentic Charlton Heston autographs sell on eBay and that's a good thing. It still doesn't feel good to see people purchase secretarials or fake. Although I'm sure there will never be a way to totally stop that.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Sibley on October 25, 2012 at 7:56am

A 'ruined' item in my collection. Sent my original Ben Hur Lobby in the 80's. Only I now know it's secretarial!

Though on a happier note, here is a genuine signature I have just added to my collection, which includes writing in his own hand.

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Permalink Reply by DB on October 25, 2012 at 8:13am

Mike, 'bout time you got back in the "game". Welcome back. The single ones are almost digestable but when the multi-signed ones are ruined it is just aggravating to the max.

I'm surprised on the landing card being available. We had this debate on a Dylan one (also in the UK) and if it was listed in the US would or could it be confiscated. Never did get an answer from the FAA after the DOT felt they could provide the answer. Maybe time to uncover my FSDO contacts!

have you noticed that it appears on EBAY the ones that were listed as orginals but secretarials appear to have returned as RPs? Also looks like Brick is detecting more forgeries now the the Challs are uncovered.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Sibley on October 25, 2012 at 8:33am

Hi DB - Don't you go getting my Landing Card signature confiscated!!! I agree with you on the Ebay ones. Here is one total fake on there at the moment as a RP! Just horrible! There are more and more fakes appearing, but the 'Challs' are still out weighing them somewhat.

Nice to see some very nice genuine ones on Ebay though. The prices being asked are always a good indicator. This Planet of the Apes one is a beauty..

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on October 25, 2012 at 9:37am

I've been eyeing this one for a while. I prefer without stickers on the front though.

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Permalink Reply by Ty Romsa on November 23, 2012 at 10:13pm

About 20 years ago Mr Heston came to my state and visited a few cities speaking at political fundraiser luncheons in support of a statewide candidate . It wasn't really my thing, but I was admittedly curious to see the man in person. It was a meet and greet affair where he walked around tables and shook hands with folks. Anticipating that I may get lucky enough to get a cool autographed piece of memorabilia related to my favorite Heston film, I made a plan. I got up early the morning of the event and drove to the local K-Mart and purchased a new Dual VHS cassette copy of the 10 commandments. (DVD's weren't around then) Knowing that a pen would probably not reproduce very well on the VHS box because of the shiny coating, I also bought a new Sharpie pen.

At the luncheon when he made it to me at my table, I shook his hand and asked if he would sign a couple pieces for me and he graciously said "I'm sorry, I won't be doing any autographs today, we simply don't have the time" and moved on. Not to give up that easy, when the event was over I immediately walked up to the local Party Chairperson and handed her the tape and the pen, and asked her to go into the VIP room they whisked him in to and try to get me my autograph! She said "wait here I'll see what I can do" and 1 minute later I saw him leave the building and get in the waiting limo and just like that he was gone! I honestly thought I struck out, when suddenly she emerged from the VIP room with the movie signed by Mr Heston. She told me I was extremely lucky because he only signed 2 autographs before he got in the car that day, and he chose my piece. I'm curious to know about the current value of this particular piece, and any thoughts as to the desirability of this particular autograph.

Attachments: No photo uploads here

ch.jpg, 155 KB

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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on November 23, 2012 at 11:37pm

Authentic item! I don't do values very well, because what you'll get for it and what it's worth are two different things. The current value is probably in the neighborhood of $20-$50.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on December 6, 2012 at 5:36pm

Anyone looking for a Heston signed book? Here's a beauty on eBay for a $21.50 Buy It Now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Actors-Life-Journals-1956-1976-by-Charl...

Even has a nice "Merry Christmas" inscription. I'd hit it myself if I already didn't have this book.

FWIW, I am not the seller and don't know who the seller is. Just trying to pass on a good deal.

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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on February 27, 2013 at 11:19am

In the spirit of sharing nice deals on authentic items, this seller, not myself, has five Moses pictures from the private signing Heston did available. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Charlton-Heston-autograph-8x10-photo-as-MOS...