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Authenticity is Everything
What is exact proof and is it always 100% Genuine ?
So guys there seems to be a slight problem on what exact proof means.
Also people are selling 1000 autographs witn 1 single proof photo because they could only snap one photo from the talent when they paid him a small fortune so is this wrong can you trust them or not ?
I hope I can try and explain every question but they will all end towards the same answer, above all the only way you can guarantee yourselfs a happy merry ending is by buying from some one you completely trust.
THE DEALER is the person you need to trust , What I mean is every dealer in the world including myself can be screwed over at any point , I have been screwed by Stevie Wonder for example I went to get his autograph they said to me wait a minute let him get on the coach and then we will come and take your vinyl, I waited outside the Lowry Hotel in manchester he got on his coach then his brother came took the vinyl got on the coach so I went to the side of the coach and saw him sign the albums for stevie wonder and Thats a Fact , Stevie was seating at the far back of the coach past the middle section were the bar and the tables were, His bro only went behind the driver at a table and done the signing.
Now the question here is what did I do with them ?
Well I took spray out rubbed the graffs and gave the vinyls to the charity shop and that is the last time I went for stevie wonder, Now I remember10 years ago at the Savoy hotel we used to be able to walk up to him and with the help of his brother who would help and direct his hand you would get a stevie wonder autographs even though it was a 50% him 50% his bro it was the closest you could get to an autograph by him.
So what am trying to say is many people left that day from that bus experience with autographs, Knowing they were not stevie wonders but choose to play the game different, I know some that sold the vinyls on ebay they took a picture of Stevie walking towards them and used it as proof , and you know what they got 200 bucks for it too.
So now an IN PERSON will tell you it is not always possible to have exact proof it can be over in 3 seconds by then you dont have time to even blink never mind take a photo, Sometimes you are in a place were the guards are waiting for you to make that mistake so they can throw u out etc ,
Now the same thing will be said for the Big Time dealers that do the private signings, If they pay for lets say HULK HOGAN to seat down and sign 1.000 items they cant snap at every item they will take 2 or 3 photos and they will use those to sell the 1.000 items.
So what is the difference here ?
The dealer is the difference , The one person you trust and the other you do not , You trust the dealer that has paid and he feels he is providing a service and he has a long job that he dont want to destroy by just selling 1000 autographs he wants to sell 1.000.000 !!
Now once again it don't mean that the guy that is a big time dealer can't be tricked ? he can too , By an agent of a star or a manager , I have experienced this too I know of a famous story of some one who brings boxers to signings that after its all done and dusted a few months later when he was asked for new stock he actually the manager signed some and send them out to dealers , Now who is the bad guy here ?
Well its not the dealer that bought the items how can he be ? All he did is called the agent paid for items that he felt were real and got screwed for it , You cant blame him can you he TRUSTED some one who should have been HONEST but wanted to pocket the whole sum of cash and not the smaller cut.
So what am trying to say here guys is Any person at any time can get screwed because we always need to TRUST someone , so when you decide to buy from some one you make sure that the person you are buying from is a genuine nice guy that also believes in the code and if he ever got screwed he would put his hands up and say you know what , Am sorry I never knew all I did is what I do every day I bought an item that was suppose to be genuine , I apologise and here is your money sir or madam.
For me this is how I choose the peolple I trust and I would back up the person that I know deep down is a good honest person and not some one who is gonna say or make a problem when asked or been told that there is a chance the item is fake.
Now also there are 100s of times that people do get it wrong there are too many people that they think they know it all and sometimes they F%$K Up and could cause s*** for no reason , But this is the nature of the game if the reputation of the person is gold and the person who sold the item knows the other person is wrong am sure he will deal with it a nice manner and prove that maybe who ever suggested the item is fake is actually wrong.
There is a dealer In New York who has sold 100s of thousands of us dollars he sells more fakes than anyone in the world Stallone, Ali , and many other High end people never ever seen anything like it , its crazy the guy takes photos of other people with stars and photoshops his head in the photos he puts product in their hands this is F%$£D UP.
Believe it or not its there the guy has become a millionare from selling fakes and where is he ? he is still there doing better than honest people because ebay and the world web gives him the millions of clients that dont have a clue about autographs.
I was a rock singer in the 90s had albums out and when it all ended, I wanted to start a bar like hard rock or planet hollywood so I went and bought 1000 bucks worth of autographs only to find out they were all fakes , This did 2 things to me it made me hate Fakers to a point of extreme views towards them and also made me go out there and try and obtain every single item myself. It kinda made me to what I am.
I know why we all hate those scumbags because at some point in our lives we all got screwed over some how , Am lucky this was 15 years or so ago in my life but it is happening to some one else right now as am writing this message.
Unfortunetlly autographs are never ending problem and it will never go away but its the same with any bussiness that generates money.
THE DEALER is the most important person in the puzzle as importand as the autographs.
Jason Thanos
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Scott Paul on
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I had the same problem with Lassie that you did with Stevie Wonder.
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Permalink Reply by DB on
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Jason, trust but verify. If you look at Coolwaters Productions LLC and thier Harrison Ford private signings there is one picture HF allows to be taken of the signing, according to Derek Maki. Problem with these exact proof items is they at least need a nonremovable watermark strategically placed to prevent them from growing legs.
the problem with many is they Trust, don't verify and don't do the homework required on signatures which I am sure what that NY Dealer counts on. BTW, who might that dealer be that you reference?
We see all too often pictures of a celebrity who has attended a public signing as the "proof" that this celebrity signed the item. Is that an "exact proof" = not in my book. Even myself have these from public signings I've been at where I have had celebrities sign; some showing the signing while others just of the celebrity. So presuming down the road these sell and 3 generations removed, who do you trust is an interesting subject.
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I think this is a good subject, more often buyers see photo's of these people signing and just assume they are good, as with the case of Gridiron authentics who uses 1 "proof" photo from a signing 10-15 years ago and sells thousands of fake signed items because they use that 1 photo on their coa and buyers just assume the items are good becuase they sell thousands of them and have good feedback.
The other thing you see alot of is sellers with legit proof photo's listing items on ebay and then someone taking the photo's and using them to sell their fake items somewhere else.
IMO exact proof means exactly nothing..
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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on
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DB yes you are 100% right good post .
My friend in new York who does all the private signing puts a hologram on the photo a hologram on the COA and a hologram on the photo proof .
This is the safest way as you could never escape if item is wrong .
But if there is no hologram etc they will lie and say it's not mine or I bought it from some one else .
This is why on my COA there is an exact small photo of the item I sold .
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Jason, good points on how to connect the items. there have been way too many "generic" coas that are still in use that one has no idea as to whether or not it references this item or some other item. Even some of the better dealers, of late, have evolved the COA in an effort to "scammer proof it".
unfortunately, the scammers are a clever bunch. Then again there are quite a few who publically or privately chastise COAs all together (but the irony is that even within this circle they will issue "their coa since the majority of buyers have a COA (must be genuine) mindset).
I started a thread; http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/ebay-s-banned-list-w... with hopes of pinning down some really bad ones and who knows.... Of course this isn't just add 'em at will as some support is needed. Feel free to add some that you have come across and still operate.
Like this NY Dealer you speak of but have yet to name.
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Permalink Reply by Rich on
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Jason, thanks for your input as always. We know you're not only one of the good guys in the hobby but also have a superior work ethic in what you do. Hence your reputation.
Exact proof is tricky. It can be particularly compelling evidence. Random pics of celebrities signing and all that helpful in general. But I've seen some photos and videos of people getting the exact autograph they're selling. In many instances, the photos do in fact represent pretty solid, conclusive proof that the celebrity did make that exact signature on that exact item. However, the tradeoff tends to be a much higher than average price. I came across this instance the other day from a seller who appears to be completely legit.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shirley-Manson-BAND-Signed-Garbage-Not-Your...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roger-Daltrey-Signed-The-Who-Quadrophenia-V...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bono-Edge-Signed-U2-Get-On-Your-Boots-7-Vin...
I'd say that's pretty sound proof. On the other hand, the prices seem to be noticeably inflated. I suppose that's the tradeoff. Some people like that additional peace of mind and don't mind paying for it.
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Rich, then you have the ARA American Royal Arts "productions". The creators of such were so good with photoshop & there are those equally gifted with video editing that for the professional high end thieves it's nearly impossibile to detect without real forensic investigations.
not saying that is the case in this instance. However there are some so talented they could make you and I appear at the swearing in along with Forest Gump.
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Precisely - ARA is a prime reason not to trust proof photos, but I seem to recall their photo evidence as being of particularly low quality and often shady even before they were officially called out. The one of Edge signing the guitar at the book signing was particularly laughable. ARA had loads of grainy, fuzzy pics - despite this being an era of digital cameras and HD imagery. That was a red flag in itself.
In the instances above (and many of that seller's other items), many of these sellers photos are pretty darned good and pretty conclusively show the signature in progress. More importantly, the signatures look authentic even without the additional evidence. That being said, I still wanted a guage on this seller and their reputation, so I posted the question about jodeci78 in the "what do you think of this ebay seller?" section. Thus far, I haven't seen a reason to doubt their reliability, but I still wouldn't mind a scouting report - or some insight on who they are.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on
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I have items in my collection with COAs and items without COAs. Some of my COAs have holograms and some do not. One particular company that I have recently purchased from issues a COA with a photo of the celebrity signing. Of course the celebrity is not signing my particular item but the celebrity was signing in their facility. The bottom line is that I trust the people who I have purchased from. I focus primarily on a rather small circle of dealers. Since joining this website I have considered many others but I have only strayed from my comfort zone twice and feel comfortable doing so. Jason makes some very good points. The bottom line is that you need to trust the dealers that you purchase from. If my best friend tells me that he met Al Pacino at a wedding and had him sign a napkin for me I would put it in my collection with the belief that it is 100% authentic. That is how much we must trust the dealers that we give business to. I also agree with DB that we must also "verify" but not all of us are as good at detecting forgeries. That is why this website is so valuable.
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Mike, right on target. I know which dealers I will go to first if I want a Green Bay Packers autograph, or if I want a modern music autograph or if I want a vintage item. Not all of them are infallible - but I actually think that some of them are, especially those who insist on selling nothing but that which was signed in their presence.
Unfortunately, many celebrity signatures are so bad that it does come down to either trust or proof. The thing with pure trust is that it can be a bit problematic should you try to sell the signature down the road, especially if it's a particularly simplistic (i.e. easy to forge) signature. You're left with someone else's gurantee, which might not mean as much to the next potential owner. I try to avoid bad autographs (i.e. I will never buy a Pacino) or bad/rushed examples, unless there is a particularly interesting inscription.
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I am very selective as well. I have no interest in a scribble. I would rather pay the extra money for an item signed at a private signing. Quality over quantity.
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There's an in person seller - legit to the best of my knowledge - selling sports items with uglier rushed signatures that, while authentic, are of decidedly lower quality that the same things signed at a private/public signing. And the prices are often comparable if not higher. Um, no.
I think the auction I posted above for the Garbage signed album is particularly hilarious. $500? Really? The whole band didn't even sign it. Contrast this to the vinyl singles for Control and Big Bright World signed by the entire band for $20 on their website (now sold out) last month. Plus that band is awesome to their fans and seem to sign away at just about every show.
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