Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by roger epperson on December 11, 2012 at 9:47am

Here is another thing that people who are "not in the know" about celebrities should know.  It is nearly taboo to ask a musician that you know or work for to sign autographs.  You just don't do it, amybe one time for a friend or family member but never more than that.  I have a few very close musician friends (and one enemy) who I have NEVER asked an autograph from.  Not since knowing them and I'm a dealer.  How could he have asked Michael to sign hundreds of things including stain removal cans?  You just don't do it.

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Permalink Reply by MJ-fan-1965 on December 11, 2012 at 11:04am

I know some of you will sort of smile at this, but honest to God when I saw the stain removal can, all I could think of is "Well, now if Monica L had Bill Clinton's sig on a stain remover can, I might believe it" lolol

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 11, 2012 at 11:31am

That's a great comparison. They both involve something crooked.

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Permalink Reply by Helen on December 11, 2012 at 11:52am

The story Julien told some people "in confidence" and posted + deleted on FB was that Bush asked Michael while he was recuperating at his house and under the influence of drugs. It's unclear if it was meant to be on several occasions or just once. It certainly doesn't make Bush look good or like a friend, but I guess it's not illegal.

Not that the story makes any sense whatsoever looking at the shape, detail, different years, extra flourishes and comments of those "autographs".

And, like I've said before, why would Bush suddenly think to get all those items signed? The odd jacket, maybe. But stain remover? LPs by other artists? Room service menus? Only makes sense if Bush knew that an MJ autograph would go up in value. Which he couldn't have known until Michael was dead.

And also - why all the "autographs" on his sewing equipment? Didn't he need it anymore...?

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Permalink Reply by Scott Paul on December 11, 2012 at 12:15pm

I would disagree somewhat that he would not have known value would go up after death.  In most cases right after death autographs of anyone of some interest will rise (sometimes dramatically before falling again).  What will be very interesting is if buyers will start to have their items appraised for insurance purposes and what those results will be. 

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Permalink Reply by Helen on December 11, 2012 at 12:43pm

I was being sarcastic. Michael didn't die of a wasting illness, so there was no way Bush could have foreseen his death. It makes the story of these autographs even more implausible that Bush wants us to believe he suddenly thought to get MJ to sign hundreds of items before it was too late.

I don't know if insurance appraisers are autograph experts. The items come with good provenance - what would be more trustworthy than someone with a longstanding proven relationship to the star and a well-known auction house? I'm with TeamMichael777, if this doesn't unravel fast we'll end up with a situation where these forgeries might become the generally recognized "authentic" MJ signature. Happy days for Bush, he can find any number of them down the back of the sofa for years to come...

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 11, 2012 at 11:03am

IMPORTANT:

Please be very careful when giving buyers advice on how to handle things. Every bidder has to agree to Julien's Terms and Conditions before bidding, and their terms are comprehensive: http://www.juliensauctions.com/terms.html

I'm not a lawyer, so don't depend on what I'm saying here. Get your own legal advice

No lawsuits: Binding arbitration is the sole legal remedy for any claims or controversy, through JAMS (Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Service) in Los Angeles. That mean no class action lawsuits or any other lawsuit may be filed in the courts. But I like this. JAMS is a good service, much faster and less costly than going through a lawsuit, and the winning party is awarded their legal fees and costs. The US isn't like the UK, legal fees and costs are hard to win. I don't think you're limited to arbitration for suing the consignor, but if you get full reimbursement from Julien's, you probably don't have a claim against them.

10 days to pay: You have 10 days to pay for your purchase and shipping and they have the right to bill your charge card on file. You've got 60 days to have your purchases shipped out or picked up, and after that you could be at considerable risk on several levels. They can even keep what you paid as liquidated damages, say if you paid for the item and not for shipping. So please, read those Terms and Conditions carefully and get advice.

5 year guarantee of authenticity: I mentioned the Guarantee of Authenticity last night, so scroll back and read my comments there, too.

There's lots more, but this gives you an idea about how careful you have to be. But again...the good thing is that Julien's has a guarantee of authenticity and binding arbitration, so resolution could be much easier than I thought.

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Permalink Reply by otto gruff on December 11, 2012 at 12:32pm

update

so i emailed darren at juliens and sent an email to the info email at juliens yesterday...still no response.

i just called juliens and the woman on the phone laughed when i suggested these were fakes and that ebay notified me. she said well they come from bush so obviously they are real..i said ya i thought so too...but since have been convinced by the overwhelming response on here with many examples.

i then asked "is this the first you have heard about this?" she told me "yes"

she said she would tell darren im waiting on a response.

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Permalink Reply by Helen on December 11, 2012 at 12:54pm

Many fans raised concerns both with Bush and Julien on their Facebook pages in the run-up to the auction. We were blocked and our comments deleted. People here from the autograph community were in touch personally with Julien, he knows there were questions, but he's adamant the stuff is trustworthy.

It appears he's been duped by a video that shows MJ signing things under the influence of drugs (which is his excuse for not making it public). Even if this video exists, ask yourself: is it likely that a drug, no matter which, changes someone's handwriting but not their ability to write, comment and embellish? That someone so groggy and disoriented that they don't question why they're signing stain remover would just mechanically sign hundreds of items (including hat brims, soles of shoes, slippery fabric, tailors' dummies and sewing machines) with complete consistency in a style he's never used anywhere else?

I don't know what's going on at Julien's, maybe he still thinks he can outride the storm. We are waiting for the estate to react after being informed about the standee that proves that the items were signed after MJ's death. By rights the police should be involved by now, but if people working at Julien's can still be unaware it doesn't seem they are. Maybe we should try to step up the pressure?

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Permalink Reply by MJ-fan-1965 on December 11, 2012 at 1:09pm

It would not surprise me one bit if a video surfaced (not of MJ looking poorly tho---but of him signing something authentic).  It is the only chance they have to try to still con the collectors.

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Permalink Reply by Helen on December 11, 2012 at 1:14pm

Oh, I agree. Only, unless the signature is clearly visible and identical to the ones on the examples at the top of this topic, a video doesn't prove a thing.

And it doesn't explain the standee.

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Permalink Reply by Helen on December 11, 2012 at 1:06pm

If there is evidence that fraud has been committed I can't imagine these terms stand up. The question is, who was defrauded by whom, i.e. who should be sued by the buyers? Would the guilty party be Bush because he defrauded both Julien (who must have kept both eyes resolutely squeezed shut not to notice) and the buyers?

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