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Authenticity is Everything
AFTAL Steering Committee Statement on Michael Jackson Autographs
The much awaited meeting of the new temporary AFTAL steering committee took place in Coventry on the 3rd January 2013 with the primary objective of addressing the much written about subject of Michael Jackson autographs. The committee is made up of 7 people, 2 of which are not AFTAL dealers. The former board members which included Dominic Manning stood down in order that Garry King and a new committee could then look at things afresh in an effort to resolve the ongoing problem. This new committee has been given free reign to look into and resolve the situation, and is totally free to decide how AFTAL shall move forward.
These alleged fake Michael Jackson signed items were first spotted by some people on a US forum, and quickly linked to Dominic Manning of Behind the Scenes. It was alleged that Dominic had sold hundreds of these to UK dealers via the AFTAL network. It was also suggested that Dominic had sold them as ‘in person’ signatures shortly after MJ’s passing, and had possibly sold hundreds.
It was also quickly established that the MJ’s in question had in fact been mainly purchased from another collector, Adrian Longden, who is well known amongst some US and UK in person collectors.
Adrian is not now, and never has been an AFTAL dealer, so we have very little control over whether he helps out in this matter or not, but we can confirm that he was willing to make a statement for us and spent time being interviewed by well known solicitor advocate Magnus Boyd at his London office.
After a great deal of discussion between all parties, it transpired that Adrian claimed to have obtained around 350 signed images/CD and LP covers during time spent mainly in LA.
Adrian was happy to discuss this with Magnus Boyd who AFTAL employed to both consider action because of the possible libellous accusations being made against AFTAL and its dealers, and in an effort to get an independent opinion of Adrian’s story.
Magnus Boyd confirmed to us that Adrian had confirmed to him via his witness statement that he spent a lot of time in the USA obtaining autographs, and that he believed the MJ items amounted to around 350 in total but that he did not get all of these himself in person, but rather used others, or the items were handed in to staff to be signed and collected later.
These collected items he then sold directly to various dealers and collectors both in the USA and the UK.
Adrian has given us what he considers to be an accurate breakdown of the items he sold and Magnus also considers that in his opinion his statement was both honest and truthful. Magnus also states “by putting this information in a witness statement and signing a statement of truth he was placing himself in a position where, if that statement was used in any subsequent court proceedings and Adrian was found to have been dishonest, he would be in contempt of court. Adrian’s awareness of this last point led him to take considerable care to ensure his statement was accurate.”
We still need to get accurate figures from Dominic Manning as to the number he sold here in the UK, but we expect to have this soon. We are also unsure of the exact number that Dominic obtained in person either here or in the USA, but so far it seems the number will be less than 15.
Whilst we all were very much aware that only one definitive answer and decision was only ever going to be popular and acceptable, we all went into the meeting with a totally open mind, determined to bring this matter to a conclusion, as there are many other matters also requiring our attention.
We began by viewing all the M.J. stock I ( Ken Mills ) had purchased directly from Adrian Longden, items Garry King had obtained from Dominic Manning and countless other examples of known 100% genuine ones including one I obtained myself personally in the late 1990's.
We also had quite a number of examples of MJ autographs which Roger Epperson had authenticated for R & R plus many other examples from other sources, all of which we had been very careful to include.
On viewing these many examples it was clear there were at least two variations of Michael's signature where the 'J' in Jackson either came down in more or less a straight line, or where he continued the line round into a looped 'J'.
On viewing known genuine examples it appears that both variations were used by him at different times. Some of the signed photos we have compared favourably with ones authenticated by Roger, and out of 20 examples only 2 did not make a decent match. We came to the conclusion on the day, that despite our vast combined knowledge it was almost impossible to split the autographs into two separate piles of 'genuine' and 'fake'.
Each time we thought we could see some light at the end of the tunnel someone would then point out something else that could then change our view.
Garry King had made a suggestion shortly after all this started, that it was a well documented medical fact that the use of certain drugs could affect that way in which you sign your name, and with the amounts and types of medication Michael was taking at that time this certainly seems feasible. But that suggestion was not accepted in certain quarters too well, but as we all know, if drink can affect you’re driving and certainly your handwriting then why not drugs? Surely this is something that should be considered?
Jason Thanos who is widely regarded as one of the top and most trusted In Person collectors worldwide, then suggested we view the backs of the photos to see if there was anything that might help us including dates, print numbers etc.This only showed us a letter in the corner of some which suggests they were ones taken into the house and other places. Some had the letter 'A' for Adrian in the top corners, which does suggest that those items were possibly the ones that had been taken into a house or elsewhere to be signed and then returned later, although what we don't know is 'who actually signed them behind closed doors'.
This tends to confirm that certain items were handed into the house Michael Jackson was using, or a member of his entourage took them in to be signed and then handed back later. It is possible that these items were then signed by another hand and therefore not obtained ‘ In Person ‘ and should not have been offered for sale as such.
It has been long established that certain stars have used a secretary for signing their fan-mail etc although this has not been widely discussed before in respect of Michael Jackson, but is this what was happening ?
If anyone in the U.S. can assist us with a possible contact either at Michael's Estate or who would be likely to help shed some light on Michael's signing habits during his last few months then please let me know and I will contact them.
Our conclusion was that it would be wrong to come to any decision on that day as we obviously needed both more time and more evidence, and we are currently making every effort to do this.
We viewed the infamous DVD which is in no way conclusive and is more of a film record of collectors specifically chasing Michael Jackson for autographs.
It does however prove beyond all doubt that Adrian Longden was in Los Angeles during the 3 month period before MJ's death, and had dialogue on a one to one basis with both MJ and his entourage as did a number of other collectors.
The numbers obtained during that period and how they were obtained became the subject of our next investigation and many AFTAL Dealers were phoned in an attempt to get numbers purchased and from where so we could more accurately examine the scale.
The DVD showed us that due to Michael's generous nature, on a number of occasions as many as 20/30 items were taken into various locations at Michael's request and brought out later with a signature on them. This confirms that there is a distinct possibility that those items were not signed by M.J. himself but by someone on his behalf.
In addition, an article in the Autograph Collector Magazine (Jan 2010) confirmed that he had become a very generous signer. “Jackson was always a generous signer and probably signed well over 100,000 autographs over his career, but in the last months of his life he took it to a new level”. “He was signing like a madman in L.A. and Las Vegas since October,” Epperson said. “If you caught him leaving tour rehearsals at Staples Center you could hand him 50 things and he’d sign them all.”
A professional collector reported, “It was the best kept secret among the pros. They really exploited the guy. Some got hundreds of items signed. They’re selling them now for $1,000-$2,000 each.
“Jackson was a sweetheart. You could knock on his limo window and hand things to his driver and Jackson would sign them in the car. These guys were handing him boxes of stuff.”
All of that of course only goes to prove that MJ did indeed sign many hundreds of items in the months leading up to his death contrary to what many had said on the forums, and we have had this confirmed by a number of other people, who have also confirmed that Adrian as well as others obtained considerable numbers of signed M.J. items during this time.
If anyone else has any categoric evidence to prove that Adrian Longden or anyone else known to him might have faked MJ's autograph, and is prepared to come forward and enlighten us, then we will be very pleased to hear from them. But in the meantime we can only surmise that the quantity that seems to be involved was more than possible to obtain.
In conclusion, we all had roughly a 500 mile round trip and spent a good 7 hours in total viewing and discussing this matter. We all felt that as a group we are neither qualified enough, nor have enough information at this time to make the decision most people had hoped for. We have listed many things we still need to do in order to continue our investigations, and have already made a start on these.
Anyone who thinks we have tried to cover up any matter relating to this investigation is perfectly entitled to their opinion, but I can assure you they could not be more wrong.
In a lot of ways it was frustrating not to have left the meeting with any solid conclusion, but all of those on the committee now know that it isn't quite as cut and dried as a lot of people had imagined.
Further meetings and investigations will continue in order to try and arrive at the truth, and we will of course keep everyone informed as and when we have something to report. I would reiterate that if anyone has any information not previously reported or supplied then we would all be glad to hear from you and your information will be dealt with in the strictest of confidence.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul Fox on
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I'm not surprised that no real decision has been made yet and judging by the admission from AFTAL members on this thread, which they have been honest and sai that as a whole the committee is not experienced in MJ autographs and they need help from outside sources who are reliable and experienced. I do applaud the honesty of such statement.
I do understand that AFTAL is being really cautious as there could be some wrong doing and in the eyes of the law, especially here in the uk, fraud is never taken lightly. As the saying goes, " protect yourselves at all times". Roger in the uk its not like USA where anyone can sue anyone if they have a lawyer, in the uk, we have to prove beyond unreasonable doubt and have enough viable evidence to bring a case to the courts.
What has surprised me is that AfTAL are saying that if PSA/DNA fail any of their items, they will refund the costs. Is this AFTAL admitting that PSA is superior to AFTAL? AFTAL have there own authenticating system, which i think now is in serious doubt, from whats been said on this thread by AFTALs own committee, expect your custom to go to PSA.
Finally, Garry has commented on this topic and maybe people can ask him about his authenticating and why he thought these were genuine on word of mouth rather than inspecting them and doing is own authentication of such pieces, in my opinion, the signatures are too neat to be said that MJ was under the influence of drugs. Thats just my opinion and it is not to discredit garry in anyway shape or form, hes respected for a reason but maybe he has flaws like every person on this planet, he might be good at some and not others. There was a lot of people jumping on the band wagon discrediting Garry when this first come about, now he can defend himself and I dont see the vast majority asking these questions now.
I believe its now time for AFTAL, to do something similar to PSA in regards to authenticating. Have a specialist in each area/genre authenticate such items with one coa for the company like PSA. This again is my opinion and may help in a positive way and will possibly make AFTAL more competitive to PSA.
I may also like to reiterate a golden rule of autographs: you only know f its genuine if its signed in front of your own eyes, anything that is not and supplied with a COA from a third party authenticator is merely an opinion, not everyones opinion are going to be the same.
I am no MJ expert. But im good at analysis and can break autographs down to find differences in comparisons, I have a keen eye.
In conclusion, AFTAL comittee cannot make a decision because they have no knowledge, Thus making it impossible to come to a conclusion whether the items in question are real or fake. It would be unfair to ask them to do so, therefore anyone that is experienced, if you want them off the market, give the committee a formal document to use as evidence as to why you think they are fake and need removing, its a big task, but if the number of people that complain and provide evidence that the items are fake is greater than those who say they are real, then its a no brainer, a decision can be made. the same goes for vice versa for those that believe they are genuine. Id say 75% is the majority to make a decision.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on
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Mr fox I enjoyed the post Neutral but constractive.
Now in regards untentication by aftal etc , 6 of us have never ever done any of those so its not fair for us to be included in that frame.
in regards to aftal been an authenticator am against it I dont want people to see me as SHREK and have them take the pitchforks to say am trying to make money. It has been noted by idiots that I go on the forums to promote myself , Idiots !! I dont even have a mortgage I am rich in dreams but poor in life so if idiots think I drive a bentley and own a castle the label idiot suits them as they are.
My life is wasted in helping others I get at list 1 to 5 emails a day from people asking me my opinion what do I think of this or that and I do it because I care and want to help , I dont force anyone to buy from me or say to them buy only from me. When I get asked if I have something and I do not I point them to the right person as am not greedy.
I am only here to help us through this crisis , I dont want to be anything more than that.
I have enough enemies (Fakers) as it is for been open and vocal and at times when helping some one innocent you are exposing a faker.
Steve and Roger both said numerous times they get the same thing all the time , But it is not just the 3 of us there are many others Bob been one of those people he has done a lot in the UK and this is why when he won his award it was to show respect to some one for sticking his neck out there, So again it was the right thing to do to bring this person round the table as he is not a bend over person but some one who wants to help.
I might have a big heart but I cant talk like this guys do am not school with books just school from life . So it is good to have this mixture of people around the table as everyone has something to offer, If you guys think that all we did was the statement that day am sorry you are all WRONG.
We have turned the wheels on loads of things but we can not go into details at this moment in time as those people could be reading this and if they get an idea of what we are working on they could shut the doors and we wont be able to do what we want to do.
Also just because we are not MJ experts done mean we are idiots it is just it is not our field, we all have areas were we are good at like Mark is an expert on BOND , Bob on LFC , Me on tones of stuff , Andy in cricket , golf , music etc . Everyone does have something to offer so dont think we are just some guys that sell kebabs or work in hmv and dont have a scooby .
Help us to help you this is it folks !!
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my personal attitude is to never kick someone while they are down and asking for help which the aftal committee are.
im glad you see my post as neutral and constructive and i hope some of my opinions help aftal become a better organisation. i would like to see it personally as a customer.
As regards to other authenticators, ive done some research and would recommend:
- the obvious; roger epperson
- greig mcarthur (didtheysignit.com)
- michael kasmar (autographpros.com)
- michael frost (PAAS)
these are 4 opinions worth taking in account.
Roger has already gave his account, he just needs some backing up by another authenticator.
no one is saying you are idiots. just inexperienced in that artist. take it as constructive criticism and learn MJ before making silly mistakes in the future. take it on the chin and get on with it. its nothing personal. its about development. and people who make personal attacks just need to chill out and raise points they have to make firmly but politely, no one wants to hear a bully and intimidation, or people spitting dummy out because they havent heard what they want to hear , being hot headed about the topic wont make a decision any quicker. its aftals reputation on the line, no one elses. actions speak louder than words.
to me aftal needs renaming, the name is now tainted with bad reflections due to this mj scenario and what ever else has happened this past year. theres enough good from the aftal to make another association.
the uk needs something like PSA, not a union of dealers who want to be crime fighters, the uk has acaf for that. this is my opinion and i believe aftal and any of its representatives should be kept seperate from acaf and let acaf be the the investigating body of forgeries in the uk. (such as boxing associations and athletic commissions, they are separate for a reason) aftal cannot be judge and jury, its just not fair, and thats the reasons why these mjs have not had a decision yet, aftal are being the judge and jury no bad feelings intended.
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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on
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If they didn't know MJ autographs then why did they waste everyones time holding a meeting about it? If i was asked to come to meeting about Neil Armstrong autographs I would say no as it''s a waste of time and money. I don't know his autograph. Obviously they have no faith in my expertise in this area so why should I offer anymore help?
We here in the US have not had a real autograph club in years and we fight the forgers pretty well by using the people and their talents to the best of our abilities. AFTAL doesn't have a broad enough knowledge of autographs to stop any kind of forgeries in my opinion.
Paul, they have all the proof they needed to end this mess they just don't know how to put the knowledge that was shared to good use. Instead they have a meeting where no one knows anything about MJ and waste everyones times. I'm sorry if I were them I would be ashamed.
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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
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After reading this statement it appears that this matter is going to be swept under the rug. I was dissapointed reading this, but i hope that my assumptions are proved wrong in the future.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Ken,
Thanks for publishing AFTAL's statement on Adrian Longden's Michael Jacksons. I'm glad AFTAL didn't come to a decision without being sure of whether they're real or not, because as you and other members have made clear, you don't know Michael Jackson's autograph well enough to make one. If you made the wrong decision it could be disasterous.
The problem is that it's taken AFTAL since September to make this statement that they don't know, allowing who knows how many more of these to be sold during the Christmas shopping season, so to the typical cynical member of the autograph community it does sound like AFTAL is hoping to sweep it under the rug and hope folks forget about it.
I've been in contact recently with Jason and Garry, though, and while they didn't tell me much about how things were proceeding with the committee, it was clear that you are taking this seriously. To the point that Jason asked Roger and me to recommend other authenticators so it wasn't just Rog, and I suggested getting PSA/DNA quick opinions on them and Roger agreed.
Here's my suggestion on how to proceed:
Get a group of people who know Michael Jackson autographs from here, AFTAL and anywhere else, and let's set up a discussion open to the public to read, but one in which only the selected group of people can contribute autographs and discuss it. That should keep it from becoming chaotic, and make it as constructive as possible. Adrian Longden would be welcome to be part of it.
I think that it will only take a week or so for enough information to come out for AFTAL to make a reasoned decision on the Michael Jacksons, and the discussion will be closed but left public, so it can be referred to in the future.
Ken, Garry, Robert, Jasonovich...what do you think?
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Why didn't they do this in the first place Steve? They have had MONTHS to do it! It reminds me of our congress.
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Well, hopefully it didn't take them months for the same reason.
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Permalink Reply by Prashant Kaushik on
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Can someone please show samples of these 'Adrian' obtained MJ signatures?
Thanks!
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Steve,
That is a great decision about gathering authenticators concerning the fake MJ's. Unfortunatley i just dont think it will ever happen. But has anything been discussed about the fake McCartney's that were being sold or the fake Hollywood autographs that Roger mentioned? Based on the statement AFTAL made, then authenticators will have to be brought in concerning them as well. I know the most attention is being paid to the MJs but everything this Adrian fellow sold that is questionable needs to be addressed all at once. Not just the MJ's. Because just like Steve said, the more time that passes, the more time these are allowed to circulate. I am surprised this wasnt mentioned more in the statement.
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These are examples of the autographs under discussion at AFTAL:
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Steve,
Thank you and others for your kind words of condolence which at this particular time have been most appreciated. Whilst the other members of the committee have been extremely supportive, and protective, advising me to limit my involvement until I have more important issues sorted I can't ignore this situation as despite what some have said since the statement was made, we are serious about trying to resolve this matter. Whilst respecting Roger's reputation I find the tone of his criticism quite offensive and the people on the committee who I have total respect for do not deserve to be portrayed as total muppets as we all have far more years collective experience in autographs than he has.
There is no doubt that the now defunct AFTAL board handled the situation in a most unprofessional manner and we have no intention of following their lead. Whilst we are not experts in authenticating Michael Jackson autographs we still are able to view handwriting and have sufficient intelligence to be able to give an opinion based on what we see before us. You are using the examples shown up above but we had so many to view on the day of our meeting and as we stated despite our knowledge and experience we all found it difficult with the numbers we were faced with. And Roger before trying to stir up a mini revolt amongst the AFTAL member community I will point out that we all travelled and paid for our own lunches out of our own pockets - NOT out of AFTAL funds. We are not an elected Board just a bunch of serious and honest Dealers and Collectors attempting to get to the bottom of this important issue.
Before this escalates yet again into a destructive slanging match which serves absolutely no useful purpose whatsoever can I make a reasoned suggestion ? We will happily work with a team of people who you deem capable of helping us on this issue ' off the forum ' where we can show you all our examples and why we believe some of them are no different to ones Roger has authenticated for R&R and then between us we can arrive at a decision which will satisfy parties on both sides of the pond. The criticism about AFTAL not doing anything since September isn't valid anymore because members of that Board did have a vested interest and there hasn't been a Board for quite some time to even look into the matter. I do feel that this should bring us closer together and there is strength in numbers and would welcome your thoughts and comments. What I'm sure none of us wants to see is another 80 odd pages of negative diatribe being pasted all over the forum which is why I suggested we work together off the forum and then come back with hopefully a satisfactory conclusion ?
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