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Authenticity is Everything
AFTAL Steering Committee Statement on Michael Jackson Autographs
The much awaited meeting of the new temporary AFTAL steering committee took place in Coventry on the 3rd January 2013 with the primary objective of addressing the much written about subject of Michael Jackson autographs. The committee is made up of 7 people, 2 of which are not AFTAL dealers. The former board members which included Dominic Manning stood down in order that Garry King and a new committee could then look at things afresh in an effort to resolve the ongoing problem. This new committee has been given free reign to look into and resolve the situation, and is totally free to decide how AFTAL shall move forward.
These alleged fake Michael Jackson signed items were first spotted by some people on a US forum, and quickly linked to Dominic Manning of Behind the Scenes. It was alleged that Dominic had sold hundreds of these to UK dealers via the AFTAL network. It was also suggested that Dominic had sold them as ‘in person’ signatures shortly after MJ’s passing, and had possibly sold hundreds.
It was also quickly established that the MJ’s in question had in fact been mainly purchased from another collector, Adrian Longden, who is well known amongst some US and UK in person collectors.
Adrian is not now, and never has been an AFTAL dealer, so we have very little control over whether he helps out in this matter or not, but we can confirm that he was willing to make a statement for us and spent time being interviewed by well known solicitor advocate Magnus Boyd at his London office.
After a great deal of discussion between all parties, it transpired that Adrian claimed to have obtained around 350 signed images/CD and LP covers during time spent mainly in LA.
Adrian was happy to discuss this with Magnus Boyd who AFTAL employed to both consider action because of the possible libellous accusations being made against AFTAL and its dealers, and in an effort to get an independent opinion of Adrian’s story.
Magnus Boyd confirmed to us that Adrian had confirmed to him via his witness statement that he spent a lot of time in the USA obtaining autographs, and that he believed the MJ items amounted to around 350 in total but that he did not get all of these himself in person, but rather used others, or the items were handed in to staff to be signed and collected later.
These collected items he then sold directly to various dealers and collectors both in the USA and the UK.
Adrian has given us what he considers to be an accurate breakdown of the items he sold and Magnus also considers that in his opinion his statement was both honest and truthful. Magnus also states “by putting this information in a witness statement and signing a statement of truth he was placing himself in a position where, if that statement was used in any subsequent court proceedings and Adrian was found to have been dishonest, he would be in contempt of court. Adrian’s awareness of this last point led him to take considerable care to ensure his statement was accurate.”
We still need to get accurate figures from Dominic Manning as to the number he sold here in the UK, but we expect to have this soon. We are also unsure of the exact number that Dominic obtained in person either here or in the USA, but so far it seems the number will be less than 15.
Whilst we all were very much aware that only one definitive answer and decision was only ever going to be popular and acceptable, we all went into the meeting with a totally open mind, determined to bring this matter to a conclusion, as there are many other matters also requiring our attention.
We began by viewing all the M.J. stock I ( Ken Mills ) had purchased directly from Adrian Longden, items Garry King had obtained from Dominic Manning and countless other examples of known 100% genuine ones including one I obtained myself personally in the late 1990's.
We also had quite a number of examples of MJ autographs which Roger Epperson had authenticated for R & R plus many other examples from other sources, all of which we had been very careful to include.
On viewing these many examples it was clear there were at least two variations of Michael's signature where the 'J' in Jackson either came down in more or less a straight line, or where he continued the line round into a looped 'J'.
On viewing known genuine examples it appears that both variations were used by him at different times. Some of the signed photos we have compared favourably with ones authenticated by Roger, and out of 20 examples only 2 did not make a decent match. We came to the conclusion on the day, that despite our vast combined knowledge it was almost impossible to split the autographs into two separate piles of 'genuine' and 'fake'.
Each time we thought we could see some light at the end of the tunnel someone would then point out something else that could then change our view.
Garry King had made a suggestion shortly after all this started, that it was a well documented medical fact that the use of certain drugs could affect that way in which you sign your name, and with the amounts and types of medication Michael was taking at that time this certainly seems feasible. But that suggestion was not accepted in certain quarters too well, but as we all know, if drink can affect you’re driving and certainly your handwriting then why not drugs? Surely this is something that should be considered?
Jason Thanos who is widely regarded as one of the top and most trusted In Person collectors worldwide, then suggested we view the backs of the photos to see if there was anything that might help us including dates, print numbers etc.This only showed us a letter in the corner of some which suggests they were ones taken into the house and other places. Some had the letter 'A' for Adrian in the top corners, which does suggest that those items were possibly the ones that had been taken into a house or elsewhere to be signed and then returned later, although what we don't know is 'who actually signed them behind closed doors'.
This tends to confirm that certain items were handed into the house Michael Jackson was using, or a member of his entourage took them in to be signed and then handed back later. It is possible that these items were then signed by another hand and therefore not obtained ‘ In Person ‘ and should not have been offered for sale as such.
It has been long established that certain stars have used a secretary for signing their fan-mail etc although this has not been widely discussed before in respect of Michael Jackson, but is this what was happening ?
If anyone in the U.S. can assist us with a possible contact either at Michael's Estate or who would be likely to help shed some light on Michael's signing habits during his last few months then please let me know and I will contact them.
Our conclusion was that it would be wrong to come to any decision on that day as we obviously needed both more time and more evidence, and we are currently making every effort to do this.
We viewed the infamous DVD which is in no way conclusive and is more of a film record of collectors specifically chasing Michael Jackson for autographs.
It does however prove beyond all doubt that Adrian Longden was in Los Angeles during the 3 month period before MJ's death, and had dialogue on a one to one basis with both MJ and his entourage as did a number of other collectors.
The numbers obtained during that period and how they were obtained became the subject of our next investigation and many AFTAL Dealers were phoned in an attempt to get numbers purchased and from where so we could more accurately examine the scale.
The DVD showed us that due to Michael's generous nature, on a number of occasions as many as 20/30 items were taken into various locations at Michael's request and brought out later with a signature on them. This confirms that there is a distinct possibility that those items were not signed by M.J. himself but by someone on his behalf.
In addition, an article in the Autograph Collector Magazine (Jan 2010) confirmed that he had become a very generous signer. “Jackson was always a generous signer and probably signed well over 100,000 autographs over his career, but in the last months of his life he took it to a new level”. “He was signing like a madman in L.A. and Las Vegas since October,” Epperson said. “If you caught him leaving tour rehearsals at Staples Center you could hand him 50 things and he’d sign them all.”
A professional collector reported, “It was the best kept secret among the pros. They really exploited the guy. Some got hundreds of items signed. They’re selling them now for $1,000-$2,000 each.
“Jackson was a sweetheart. You could knock on his limo window and hand things to his driver and Jackson would sign them in the car. These guys were handing him boxes of stuff.”
All of that of course only goes to prove that MJ did indeed sign many hundreds of items in the months leading up to his death contrary to what many had said on the forums, and we have had this confirmed by a number of other people, who have also confirmed that Adrian as well as others obtained considerable numbers of signed M.J. items during this time.
If anyone else has any categoric evidence to prove that Adrian Longden or anyone else known to him might have faked MJ's autograph, and is prepared to come forward and enlighten us, then we will be very pleased to hear from them. But in the meantime we can only surmise that the quantity that seems to be involved was more than possible to obtain.
In conclusion, we all had roughly a 500 mile round trip and spent a good 7 hours in total viewing and discussing this matter. We all felt that as a group we are neither qualified enough, nor have enough information at this time to make the decision most people had hoped for. We have listed many things we still need to do in order to continue our investigations, and have already made a start on these.
Anyone who thinks we have tried to cover up any matter relating to this investigation is perfectly entitled to their opinion, but I can assure you they could not be more wrong.
In a lot of ways it was frustrating not to have left the meeting with any solid conclusion, but all of those on the committee now know that it isn't quite as cut and dried as a lot of people had imagined.
Further meetings and investigations will continue in order to try and arrive at the truth, and we will of course keep everyone informed as and when we have something to report. I would reiterate that if anyone has any information not previously reported or supplied then we would all be glad to hear from you and your information will be dealt with in the strictest of confidence.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
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While personal attacks dont belong in the thread Robert, the actions taken so far do deserve valid questions asked about them. How can you possibly have a meeting concerning the authenticity of an individuals signature if you dont have any expertise on that person?? I certainly think that the members of AFTAL are experienced enough to look at valid signature examples and determine an obvious signatures validity. But when your dealing with a forger who is good, then it becomes a different matter completely. And i agree with most of what you are saying Brandon. I think your spot on.
Especially in a very controversial matter like this. The first thing you would want to do is call in the best experts for opinions it would seem. Why Roger, the main person saying the items were bad and who was offering to show what was wrong with them, wasnt consulted at all seems baffling. If he was wrong it would be pretty easy for it to be shown, so why in the world wasnt he consulted during the meeting.
Maybe they did call on Roger and that i missed something, and if so, then everything i have just said is null and void, but i got the impression from Roger that he wasnt consulted at all. If the best MJ expert in the world is telling everyone something and is willing to show proof, why not listen and work with him?
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Permalink Reply by Robert McCluskey on
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Hi Carl, thanks for a more reasoned input.
While personal attacks dont belong in the thread Robert, the actions taken so far do deserve valid questions asked about them.
I'm glad you agree with the former, and I unequivocally agree - AND ENCOURAGE - the latter.
You (and others) have asked this :
"How can you possibly have a meeting concerning the authenticity of an individuals signature if you dont have any expertise on that person?? "
For the record, and to clarify, in case my original point was missed.
The committee is not there simply to resolve the issue with the Michael Jackson autographs. There are many other things that we will be doing including things that I have greater experience than the other members and probably anyone else on this forum.
My inclusion here is not as an expert Michael Jackson authenticator, it is as a non-AFTAL member to verify that there is no cover up and that any investigation is done fair and openly and that, if necessary, awkward questions are asked and unpleasant answers are published. I have never in my life had any questions asked of my integrity and, in the UK at least, am probably as well known and (hopefully !) respected as Jason for fighting fakers, however big or small they may be. I defy anyone to find any record or comment to suggest otherwise, which is why I am particularly angered about the incessant accusations of whitewash / cover up on this matter. The more this is repeated, the more the likelihood that some people will believe it and that is just plain wrong.
Deal in facts and facts alone and we will progress. Ask a million questions if need be. But when opinions are stated as facts and actual facts are either ignored or rubbished then there is little chance of reaching a genuine, satisfactory conclusion on anything.
Regards,
Bob
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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on
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For the record Bob has done a lot more than me as he is all the time after the scum I do it when am free and when I can.
But its true not only bob is not aftal but neither is Mark so there are at list 2 non aftal people and both from different backgrounds and there to balance the ideas and not make any organisation look one sided.
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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on
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Thanks Carl, I try to make clear and straight forward points. Especially when I expected more from the "new" ( besides Garry ) AFTAL. We HAVE to remember that this board was just an email away from making contact with the top experts in each genre. Did they contact them? It appears not.
I agree totally in what I read, that Roger was NOT contacted by this board. In fact, I take this statement as if they don't put much weight in the solid study that Roger submitted in the original argument.
I'm the NASCAR expert, Not an MJ expert. Still, I am allowed to have as much input and opinions on this matter as ANYONE. As is every member here.
Do I have opinions on the MJ autographs? NO! However, the MJ items sold by Garry King and other AFTAL members were clearly ( at least to me ) shown to be "bad". I pointed out the Harrison Ford items sold by Garry which were also agreed upon as "bad".
The point that I still have questions about the AFATAL direction concerning these items is my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I just need a true expert to show me that I am wrong.
Steve, you proclaim all the time that you are not an expert. However, you should be able to match well regarded experts up with the AFTAL board. That role would be quite important.
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Well carl read again , I did ask for Roger's and Steve's Help and to be honest the comitee is not all about just the jacksons but many other problems in the industry.
Unless you feel lets only deal with Jackson and forget going after every other faker we have on our sites inc proof and confirmation that they are corrupt and dodgy and we can actually take them down, Like we have been doing for years.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Ken,
I think that the way AFTAL has handled the Adrian Longden/Behind the Scenes forgery problem has so diminished the collecting community's trust in AFTAL that at this point, things have to be handled publicly.
This isn't a matter of satisfying parties on both sides of the pond. It's a matter of protecting collectors against forgeries, wherever they live, or making them whole if they have already been sold forgeries. I also couldn't in good conscience ask anyone to help AFTAL "off the forum," because it could hurt their reputation if AFTAL rules the way many fear it will.
If you have examples of Michael Jacksons from Adrian that you feel are no different than those Roger authenticated for RRAuction, please feel free show them publicly, along with the ones from Adrian and Behind the Scenes you're evaluating.
Let's get this all out on the table in public. I think you'll be glad you did.
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Steve actually this is what his next job is , We would like to show you that we saw them identicle at times when we put them side by side etc. And therefor this is why we tried our best to be fair and not just hang a guy with no reason.
Yes we all know roger is the man for the job fair enough none of us have a problem with this and I dont believe anyone has ever said this. But since we are trying to be the people in the middle of this fight we are getting told from the other side of the ring that they are not happy with roger either and this is why we are trying to make it fair and say ok how about this guy then , That way no one has any reason to use an excuse. I hope you guys are understanding what I mean .
We are the referee and we have 2 teams at each other we need to make sure that no red cards are pulled and everything is done properly and at the end only one will win and hopefully the one that deserves too.
Ken is gonna scan the images I believe soon but I do know he has a funeral today or tomorrow and he is preparing for it at this moment.
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Jason,
If AFTAL is looking at itself as the referee in a fight between Roger and me and Adrian, Dominic and company, this has been a complete waste of time.
The Adrian sourced Michael Jacksons and Paul McCartneys we've seen that were supplied by Adrain are easy to identify as forgeries once you have them and genuine examples side by side. Roger and I were frankly shocked that they were sold under AFTAL's nose for years with abandon until they were pointed out on this site in August. I pointed out the MJs to AFTAL last spring.
Plus Adrian offered MJ signed 11x14 photos to Roger's customer for only $250 each a year after Jackson died...and sent him 15 to pick from. If they were real, Adrian could have sold them on eBay for several times that.
Jason, AFTAL has been acting like they're doing the world a favor looking into this, and has frankly been pompous, insulting and condescending. All along we've heard the AFTAL members speaking for the group saying they are not getting paid for their time, they're covering their own travel expenses, they're buying their own lunches. Not once do I recall them thanking us for pointing the forgery problem out because AFTAL has made a promise to the public that they can trust AFTAL members. Early on, in fact, they focused on saying false, negative things about us and threatening to sue us.
Well not only have Roger and I not gotten paid for our time and expenses for this, we risk getting sued, get defamed and lied about, and I lose potential advertising revenue. But we do this all the time.
So stop acting like a bunch of martyrs. AFTAL is a dealer trade group that made big promises to fans and autograph collectors. Focus on living up to those promises, or call it a day.
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Steve, in fairness, it should be pointed out that you are referring to a whole different bunch of people there. Apart from Garry, none of us were party to anything that happened before December 2012. I don't think we have acted pompous, condescending or insulting in any way shape or form since the new committee was formed, in fact I think we have showed remarkable restraint in the face of an oftimes hostile "audience".
I can assure you, 100%, we all understand why some people feel the way they do, and guilty by association is always hard to overcome, but I won't be held responsible or accountable for comments or statements made by the previous AFTAL board.
Regarding the expenses thing - this was a actually a response to a direct comment from Roger who queried if members funds were being used for our transport and sustainance.
And as for risking getting sued - well, to be honest, there's little chance of that happening to you, here. There is, however, a very real chance of it happening to us. If a libel case was brought against us then we have to prove that what we say is true - it is not for the "accused" to prove that what we have said is false and anyone who has been involved in autograph fraud investigations will tell you how difficult this is.
People could, perhaps, start thinking a bit more about this and use a bit of common sense before jumping to conclusions... it is just not possible to print everything we know / think / feel, this is one of the reasons why it was suggested a little "off-forum" discussion may be beneficial - not to try and involve anyone in a cover-up...
Kind regards,
- Bob
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Bob,
I know that you are helping out for the sake of the hobby and are not an AFTAL member. My post was not directed towards you, sorry.
What really hit me was them acting like they were doing us a favor by trying to mediate a dispute between Adrian and Co and us. That showed that AFTAL doesn't really have a clue.
If AFTAL wants some help in private with this, I'll do what I can. But I can't in good conscience invite anyone else to join in and get tangled up with this tar baby.
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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on
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Nice one Jason , thanks for putting it over in clear English ! lol
Yes Ken has other matters at this time too, soo we can wait for the images
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You love it yes you do lol . Anyway listen gaz I will reply for all of the 4 last questions. Yes it is true Gary bought this Items as obtained by Dominic Manning and Not Adrian. I hope this clears that I know gary was not allowed to come on hear and respond as there was a gag on him he was actually gonna come but got a little upset at the way the whole thing started. I believe things have changed now I believe people know that we did not all just bring popcorn to the meeting and order hookers to pass the time and use aftals money to pay for them ..
Now you also mentioned 2 authenticators etc. Let me make this clear for the last time WE THE COMITEE RESPECT HIGHLY ROGER WE KNOW HE IS TOP ON HIS FIELD AS WE HAVE DONE OUR RESEARCH , But gary it is not us that need to ask for 2 seperate authenticators but lets say all the parties that disagree . So to be fair we have done this and we have now requested further help from other experts .
Also we have all spend I can say with no word of a lie hundreds of hours on emails and phone calls in the US and Uk with getting tones of evidence so we can move towards the next step.
Once again none of us are getting paid for this we are only trying to help the public and all the people who we want to help that done know how to deal or to who they should turn for this mess.
Let me say also that this is not a glam job it is not doing any favours to a single person out of the seven of us , You try and imagine that we exchange close to 50 emails a day between us to say the list, Then there are the phone calls etc.
Am sick of it as I have a little girl that I would rather be with than here doing this when really i dont want to , But had to accept as more than 3 friends thought I would be the right guy to help the lads inc a few of the boys on AML asking me it kinda put me in a tough spot.
We want nothing but the truth and no matter what the outcome is then people will have to deal with the result if refunds are to be made well this is it this is life you do it or get done , its simple.
I myself have a 100% refund policy if I get asked now to refund something I would ask why and if some one can prove the item is bad I will apologise and refund the item as this is what I say I will do , But just because I do this it dont mean am the smart dealer I could be the idiot in other people eyes , But hey everyone has their opinion and everyone does bussiness with people in different ways.
Gary trust me we are a good bunch and not hiding anything you know Andy your self , You dont know me that well but you know many people who do and if I was not to be trusted you would have found that out long time ago and you would have let the world know.
There is a good bunch of lads and also lets not forget not all are aftal dealers so lets keep going and hopefully this will be over soon...
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