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PSA/DNA Certified Items - Right or Wrong

Not being a dealer or auctioneer I am perfectly suited to referee this discussion if need be. This section is mostly for Items that PSA/DNA has certified that in an opinion of authenticators has missed the mark (AND NOT as far as they know been corrected) along with any other items of significance.

In some cases the certification provided might be a simple rejection while in other cases it's certifying it as authentic when it may be far from it.

The thread is not about the good, the bad or ugly of 3rd parties as there is already an excellent thread in the forum on this started by R&R's Bobby Livington that everyone should follow. That thread alone has produced three disccusions on Farrah Fawcett, Elvis, and now this.

Hopefully, AM members will follow this thread (I am sure the fraudsters & propaganda machines will) and point others to it - Perhaps, the owners of the item that is cited. Those owners can then deal with the authentication firm or sellers and report back their journey.

Since I don't expect the PSA/DNAs of the world to come online and defend/refute (althugh the have an open invitation) the postings then be advised this is not a thread to speculate, accuse, or otherwise besmirch what is or what isn't being done.

So 'nuff said and on with the items. To keep discussions focused and contained - Each Item contributors need to stay in the realm of that item so commentary is not all over the place.

remember if you post an item denote the PSA/DNA number on their sticker... One, if they choose can also validate the item's number on the PSA/DNAs database to see if it is in fact a product of PSA/DNA as we have heard that the fraudsters are/have created bogus ones and report your findings here.

Tags: certification, certifications, errors, forgeries, psa, psa/dna

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 15, 2011 at 12:52am

please defend this statement, "i,e, sport show doing 10 minute authentications on signatures that have about a 2 out of 10 on the experience scale. " with facts.

I have attended outings where both Beckett and PSA/DNA are present including Tri-Star & MAB and I don't seem to have that viewpoint.

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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on January 15, 2011 at 7:56am

The last 15 years attending sport shows in Boston area, with both PSA and JSA. Myself, friends and clients submitting items. Literally watching them do the authentications in the booth.

You're going waay overboard with this. Read all my posts you will see I am hardly "Trashing" PSA, I am using your words "trashing" a "Process". Also, if I felt about PSA as per the picture you paint, would I guarantee all the autographs I sell based on PSA or JSA findings?? The math doesn't add up.

If you "I have attended outings where both Beckett and PSA/DNA are present including Tri-Star & MAB and I don't seem to have that viewpoint."

That's wonderful! I'm glad you feel that way. But, again the Sport SHow setup is not a fully competent service, probably never will be. The time and venue affords no complete "reference library", no "team of niche experts", limited "equipment".

Do you really think two guys at the PSA booth have the expertise/experience to do Mantle, Marilyn, Elvis, Einstein, Armstrong, Schulz, Garland, Sinatra,Lincoln, etc etc? It is just not a sensible conclusion.

Well if your answer is YES, then PSA disagrees with you. That's why they have.......
http://www.psacard.com/experts.chtml

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 15, 2011 at 10:08am

Kevin, we can agree to disagree on some of this but I do concur "... the Sport SHow setup is not a fully competent service" which is why I wouldn't take anything out of sports and expect accuracy good or bad. I have had PSA/DNA opt out and take some of my sports items with them for further review. More often than not they stay on topic with the show attendees. Many times at a MAB event we found that they processed the paperwork for later analysis and stayed focused on the celebrities that were at the show.

I can't speak to your experience but only my own which has been as extensive as yours. The card people are concerned with grading the card while looking for forgery cards. To slab them, they have to be submitted after the quick opinions are renderd.

I'll have to attend one of those shows in Boston where PSA renders opinions on Marilyn, Elvis, Einstein, Armstrong, Schulz, Garland, Sinatra, Lincoln as I could make quite a small fortune on reselling fakes. Also in the link you provide notice "Reza is a senior member of the PSA Grading team with vast knowledge in all areas of collectible sports cards" as it says "grading team" meaning more than one and it also doesn't mean it is only done in Calif,

Reminds me of this kid recently who was breaking up his collection and offered his "STAT" Ted Williams which I explained and declined. To no avail, some guy, so I was informed, was starting a collection for his young son and thought it would be a good investment and purchased the STAT COAd item.

I'll take my chances with psa/dna over independents any day of the week on most items. Perhaps more cautiously in some genres than others after reading some excellent inputs from you, travis, brandon and others as the odds are in their favor.

Permalink Reply by Bobby Livingston on January 15, 2011 at 10:09am

RR Auction did not correct the mistake out of "embarrassment" but because that is our policy as autograph auction company.

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 15, 2011 at 9:50am

Travis, this is why in the industry I come from we call it "you are dead right!". The problem being is that people who are "dead right" hardly ever gain any traction. Doesn't make you a bad guy You are unwilling to give any credit without a backhanded slap as if they owe us something more. Than even if they do that will still not be enough. PSA/DNA does not correct items because of "embarassment" IMHO. They fixed this one as there was evidence to the contrary.

It is perhaps the sole reason why they pay little to no attention to you and that unfortunately is sad as you appear to have expertise in a vertical area.

again, while I don't disagree with some of your points there is a time and place for it. Sometimes, it simple to just say, "that they fixed a mistake". They owe us no further explanation.

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 15, 2011 at 10:50am

speaking of BL - here is something of interest pertaining to the current Space Auction R&R is running. Looks like that auction is going to be a winner. Gotta love the explanation on PBOY De De Lind article. I'll have to email her as she will get a kick out of this.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/video/space-age-i...

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 24, 2011 at 6:17am

So we have debated PSA DNA, R&R, Real and so on and the worth of COAs 3rd party or elsewhere but here is a new twist.

Somehow, I don't think I want my name printed on a COA nor does this appear to be a reputable practice. Perhaps it has something to do with that flawed Bogart Ensemble conversation that disappeared so quickly. It seems to me either the Item is authentic or not and it doesn't pertain to the original buyer. Seems rather a slimy practice.

Seems it gives new meaning and positive worth to PSA/DNA & R&R COAs doesn't it.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Miller on February 11, 2011 at 3:41pm

JSA got this one wrong:
http://entertainment.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7031&L...

Maybe JSA didn;t even look at these contract signatures they provide an LOA for of the Rat Pack coming up in Heritage Entertainment auction next week. But the Sinatra contract is clearly a secretary signed document.

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Permalink Reply by DB on February 11, 2011 at 4:07pm

oh no,,,, jsa fell on it's sword on this one.... Okay, what do the masses say;

How could they fubar on a contractural document, especially as suggested a secretarial one? Mike, why a secreatary one?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on February 11, 2011 at 4:57pm

DB,

I don't know if it's actually secretarial and I didn't send out for an opinion. It doesn't look enough like Sinatra's sig to me, though.

But it's very common for proxy-signed contracts to be sold as real. There's a dealer who's had a number of Ray Charles proxy-signed contracts for years he's listed as genuine. I've seen them for six years or more.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on February 11, 2011 at 5:11pm

Here is the one bad thing about auction letters. I also believe this is why no one does them anymore. But once Jsa gets the item in there hand and have the experts of that particular person look at it . It will be given a non verification. They turn down items even after issuing auction loa. It will piss the person off who bought the item. But the best thing to do is contant heritage and let them know that they may be selling a secreterial autograph and why you think it is.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Miller on February 11, 2011 at 7:00pm

DB,

not even close. Everything about it is blatant NOT in his hand. I wouldn't know where to begin except maybe the "F" and end with the "a". in Sinatra. You can tell whoever did it tried to mimic his style but messed up really bad, shaky everywhere, the F is totally funky, and pretty much all the letters are obviously manufactured using his examples. I heard sometimes the lawyers or managers would sign the more trivial contracts. If anyone disagrees I'd like to hear the argument.