Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on June 8, 2014 at 4:44pm

You should be very happy. You received a photo with a stamped signature, a photo with an authentic signature and an authentic check endorsement for $10 plus shipping (x2)? That is a sweet deal. Anyone wanting an TTM autograph at this point will have to pay $100 for less than what you've received.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 8, 2014 at 5:55pm

Steve,

I hate to say it, but unless you wrote the check to both JLL and Judith, the JLL signature was definitely signed by her, to endorse the check for him. Otherwise there would be no reason for her to sign it.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on June 8, 2014 at 11:02pm

I don't understand what you're saying.

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Permalink Reply by Steven Jackson on June 9, 2014 at 6:48am

I believe Steve is talking about the cheque endorsement I posted with jerry lee and judith signed. He believes that Judith would have signed for jerry on the cheque otherwise there would be no reason for her to also sign it.

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Permalink Reply by Chad B on June 9, 2014 at 7:29am

If the check was written to Jerry and he wanted to give it to her or for her to deposit it, he would sign it and then she would have to sign it. Usually a bank will not cash or deposit a check if both the person the check was written to and the depositor have not  endorsed it.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 9, 2014 at 8:40am

Chad,

I'm sorry, but that's not correct about deposits. Banks take checks for deposit all the time endorsed only by the depositor the check is written to, no matter who brings the deposit in. The check has both signatures on it because the JLL is a proxy signature. 

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on June 9, 2014 at 9:58am

If that's the case, then why would she need to endorse the check with her own name? If it's made out to JLL, the bank would have accepted it with only the JLL endorsement. The other checks were endorsed only by JLL.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 9, 2014 at 11:04am

Ballroom,

She would have signed it in her name as well to make it clear that she signed JLL's endorsement. It's not legal for someone to sign a legal instrument for someone else and try to pass it off as being signed by them. By signing it herself as well, she's making it clear to the banks that she signed his endorsement, and it's up to the banks to accept it or not. If JLL's bank accepts it, then the issuer's bank almost always does.

However, it's quite possible that there have been times where someone has endorsed checks for deposit in JLL's name and did not sign theirs as well. Nothing illicit would have been intended. They would all go into his bank account. But it's not uncommon for people to do that and not think anything of it.

It's no different than the secretarily signed signatures often seen on artist appearance contracts. Sometimes the artist actually signs it. Sometimes someone who works for the artist signs for the them and signs their name as well. And sometimes they sign for the artist and don't note that it's secretarial.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on June 9, 2014 at 11:37am

The signatures appear to me to have been signed by two different people. The JLL signature shows unusual characteristics associated with an authentic JLL signature, including the connected “RY” and combination of two different styles of “E”.

Permalink Reply by Chad B on June 9, 2014 at 11:53am

Steve,

It seems like we are getting off track a bit but I will respond anyway. What you wrote has not been my experience in sunny southern Indiana. I also just spoke to my banker (a medium size regional bank). A few points were made-

• If a proxy signature is used it must be an authorized signor such as a power of attorney and noted as such on the check (with proof of POA documentation).
• Two signatures such as this case does not communicate to the bank that the wife signed his name. The banker had never heard anything like that.  
• If it has both signatures the first sig would denote the check is being transferred. The second signature would be the person trying to pass the check. My bank said they would take it this way but the preferred method would have the first signor note they are transferring the check to the second party.

With that being said, I don't know for sure who signed the reverse of Steven Jackson's check. It is a small signature but I feel JLL could have signed it.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 9, 2014 at 2:56pm

Chad,

We're not off-track. The last thing we want is for a secretarial to be considered a genuine exemplar. There's certainly enough question here that it can't be used as an example of a real JLL.

Regarding your banker's comments about the word proxy:

In the autograph world, proxy and secretarial mean the same thing; a fake signature signed with the subject's consent.

With all due respect to your banker, what I described to you happens all the time. 

Can you think of any other common scenario where Judith would need to endorse a check made out to her husband after he signed it? 

Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on June 9, 2014 at 3:06pm

Are you sure that the JLL signature was signed first? It appears to me as though Judith endorsed it first, and then JLL squeezed his signature in above hers.

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