Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dane on June 12, 2015 at 1:50am

Exactly. Look at the facts:

Catalog 335 (Eagles item) was for the July 2008 auction.
Catalog 324 (Clapton, Cream & Pink Floyd items) was for the August 2007 auction.
Catalog 345 (Moody Blues item) was for the May 2009 auction.
Catalog 336 (Rolling Stones item) was for the August 2008 auction.

The rejection letters date:

May 31, 2011 (Cream, Rolling Stones, Eagles items)
April 29, 2011 (Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, Clapton items)

For some reason, the Clapton rejection letter is without a photo, and the date and item are handwritten. It seems illogical that PSA would use one type of rejection letter for the Clapton item and a different type for the other two items.

RR hasn't eliminated its authenticity guarantee. What was shortened is what was apparently a no questions asked guarantee. The terms & conditions still allow for returns based upon failed authentication. The one year restriction is for arbitration, which has become somewhat standard in contracts.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on June 12, 2015 at 6:40am

They shortened their guarantee from lifetime to 5 years. After 5 years no item can be returned for any reason. Also, lots sold with third party authentication are not eligible for return at all.

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Permalink Reply by Dane on June 12, 2015 at 1:49pm

Where did you see the five year thing?

This is the wording from the T&C:

"14. If the description of any lot in the catalogue is incorrect (e.g. gross cataloging error), the lot is returnable if returned within five (5) calendar days of receipt, and received by RR Auction no later than twenty-one (21) calendar days after the sale date. NO RETURN OR REFUND OF ANY AUCTION LOT WILL BE CONSIDERED EXCEPT BY REASON OF LACK OF AUTHENTICITY, UNLESS OTHERWISE PROVIDED IN THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE."

I interpret that to mean that there is no limitation on authenticity. They can't shorten the guarantee on authenticity, as that would place their UACC dealer status in jeopardy.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on June 12, 2015 at 2:08pm

"If a bidder wishes to challenge the Letter of Authenticity within the five (5) year warranty period, Bidder must present with the claim, authoritative written evidence that the lot is not authentic as determined by a known expert in the field."

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Permalink Reply by Dane on June 12, 2015 at 2:33pm

What LOA are they referring to? Are these LOAs issued by PSA/whoever their panel of experts includes?

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on June 12, 2015 at 2:42pm

The RR Auction LOA issued with each item they sell. Items sold with third party LOAs (PSA, JSA) are not eligible for refunds due to authenticity.

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Permalink Reply by Dane on June 12, 2015 at 5:52pm

That seems reasonable enough. I suppose the argument is that PSA/JSA would be the third parties that would be used to validate/invalidate authenticity, so it'd be senseless to get their opinion and still allow for the item to be deemed inauthentic by a different third party.

As for the challenge of the LOA, I still don't see how that precludes authenticity from being a reason for refund beyond the five year stipulation. As an UACC registered dealer, the company would need to stand behind the authenticity of anything it sells for life, as long as it is returned and accompanied by a receipt. If a TPA deems an item a forgery, even beyond the five years, I'm pretty sure that item 14 (coupled with the UACC charter for dealers) would take precedent.

Permalink Reply by Mike T on June 12, 2015 at 6:05pm

Not really sure what else to add, it specifically says you can only challenge their LOA within 5 years and that their LOA is completely void after 5 years.  That means you cannot return any item due to authenticity or anything else after 5 years from the date of purchase.

Also, if an item is sold with a JSA cert, and you want to send it to PSA and PSA fails it or vice versa, you cannot get a refund on that item.

That's just how it is written, I don't know anything about UACC rules taking precedent over their own terms of service, legally you are agreeing to their terms when you bid, not the UACC's.

Permalink Reply by Gratefulphish on June 12, 2015 at 7:41pm

I agree with Mike's interpretation.  If you go to RR Auction, a lot of their items are now listed as PSA pre-certified or authenticated.  As far as I read the RR guarantee, that now completely absolves them of any further liability whatsoever on those items.  As for other items with just the RR LOA, then you have five years to provide a written opinion by an expert in the field in order to request a refund.

Permalink Reply by Dane on June 12, 2015 at 8:32pm

Grateful, since you like to take a legal approach on things, how would you interpret clause 14 of the Terms & Conditions?

Permalink Reply by Gratefulphish on June 12, 2015 at 10:01pm

This is the language out of the current RR Auction catalog:

If Bidder wishes to challenge the AC within the period of the Certification of Authenticity, Bidder must present written evidence that the lot is not authentic as determined by a known expert in the field.  If RR Auction agrees that the lot is not as represented, Bidder's sole and exclusive remedy shall be a refund of their purchase price, with no other costs, liabilities or amounts recoverable.  If RR Auction does not agree with the claim by Bidder, then the Parties shall follow the dispute resolution procedures of these Conditions of Sale.

Any such challenge concerning an AC or Certification of Authenticity must, without any exception, be brought within one (1) year of Bidder's notice to RR Auction of Bidder's contention that the lot was not authentic, or six (6) years from the Auction Date, whichever is sooner.

If the description of any lot in the Catalog is materially incorrect (e.g., gross cataloging error), the lot is returnable within five (5) calendar days of receipt, and received by RR Auction no later than twenty-one (21) days after the Auction Date.  If there is any discrepancy between the description in the Catalog and the AC, then the description in the AC shall control.  This paragraph shall constitute Bidder's sole right with respect to the return of items, and no refunds shall be given for any items not returned to and received by RR Auction.

NO RETURN OR REFUND OF ANY AUCTION LOT WILL BE CONSIDERED EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN THESE CONDITIONS OF SALE.

________________________________________________

As I read the above, it is now six years, not five, but that is the outside limit of what RR will cover, unless the Bidder makes RR aware prior to that, in which case the Bidder has only one year from when they first notify RR of any question about authenticity.

I think that the latter language, which I put in bold, is to resolve any issues like Michael Johnson asserting that he should get a refund and keep the items anyway.

Permalink Reply by Dane on June 13, 2015 at 4:44am

So, essentially, the catalog bidder conditions are materially different than the online bidder conditions. I would think the exclusion of the authenticity clause in T&C 14 is material, in this case.

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