Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gratefulphish on June 13, 2015 at 3:10pm

I know that I have previously seen "Lifetime COAs" that were not restricted to the original purchaser.  They may have been by the auction house, and not an authenticator, like RR's appear to have been. 

But, I have a hard time understanding how PSA or any authenticator could argue that no future purchaser of the item cannot rely on their prior authentication of it.  That would mean that every subsequent purchaser would have to pay to have the item authenticated all over again.  There has to be some responsibility at the end of the line for the entity that was paid and issued its stamp of approval, whether it was the original purchaser, or a subsequent owner.

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Permalink Reply by Mike White on June 22, 2015 at 12:00pm

There's a difference between the authenticity opinion not transferring and the piece of paper describing that authenticity not transferring.

The rules against the latter make sense, given the tendencies of people to forge items & pair them with COAs & LOAs for other items. If you buy from someone who does that, they don't want to be on the hook for it.

However, companies like PSA will physically mark the item and rather than "authenticating it all over again" will issue a replacement COA once they verify that mark. I would assume their willingness to do that would transfer with the ownership of the item.

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Permalink Reply by Dane on June 13, 2015 at 2:34pm

"2.  That AC only covers the original Bidder.  It is non-transferable, so in any subsequent re-sale, no future purchaser can rely on the RR AC. [I am sure that this will lead to future legal problems.]"- gratefulphish

Why would that lead to any legal problems? This has been the generally accepted understanding of a guarantee of authenticity, insofar as I understand, since I've been collecting (20 yrs). If something is found to be inauthentic, you return it to the person you bought it from, then they return it to whoever they bought it from. It's never been the case where a third party to the original transaction can make a demand against the issuer of the COA (unless they are the party the item was purchased from).

Heck, if automakers can claim that a warranty only applies to the original owner, and that's legal, I can't see how the authenticity system currently in place would represent a legal issue.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on June 13, 2015 at 2:35pm

The original point to this thought train was that this is a large step down from the lifetime guarantee they offered before.  And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the old guarantee, with regards to authenticity, was transferable as well.

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Permalink Reply by Dane on June 13, 2015 at 2:42pm

I don't know if it was transferable, but it seems it shouldn't be.

Take, for example, a Michael Jackson autograph sold before his death. After death, a third party purchases the item for 10x the original price. They then submit it for authentication, and it fails. RR's liability would be limited to the lower of the original selling price or current market value. I doubt the third party purchaser would be satisfied with getting back 10% of what they paid, so they'd likely go after the buyer anyway.

As for the lifetime guarantee, I still think that's in place, since they're still a UACC dealer. The original purchaser, with original receipt, can return a non-authentic autograph for the original amount of purchase or a replacement item.

I just emailed UACC, so I'll post if they respond.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on June 13, 2015 at 2:52pm

With the failed cert from psa/dna, if the items are authentic will it be disputed in court?

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Permalink Reply by Gratefulphish on June 13, 2015 at 3:54pm

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but under the new provisions, all disputes will be subject to arbitration, rather than the courts.  That is actually an improvement, as the costs are dramatically less, the case gets resolved much quicker, and you can probably even find an agreed upon arbitrator who has some knowledge and experience in the field.

Imagine trying to explain the differences in loops, and stops and starts, and other miniscule details upon which items are authenticated to an overworked Judge in a local court.  Good luck. I would prefer an arbitrator any day.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on June 13, 2015 at 4:04pm

Thanks..

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on June 13, 2015 at 2:57pm

Dane, I think it is quite clear they are limiting the lifetime authenticity to 5 years.

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Permalink Reply by Gratefulphish on June 13, 2015 at 3:55pm

I agree with Mike's interpretation.  If there is supposed to be a lifetime guarantee because RR is a UACC member, then their current policy seems to conflict with that.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 13, 2015 at 3:19pm

Why doesn't someone assemble a list of questions about the guarantee from members of this discussion and send the list to R&R for answers?

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Permalink Reply by Gratefulphish on June 13, 2015 at 3:57pm

I will take on that task, as it is really the end list from my longer post above, turned into questions, rather than statements.  But, I have to head out for a while, so it would be late tonight or tomorrow.

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