Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by wascher on September 9, 2015 at 4:23pm

The first one looks like someone was trying to copy the Moonwalker book's preprinted signature, the second one looks like a copy or an attempt at one of his will signatures.

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on September 17, 2015 at 3:17am

Back to pillows, this one seems to have got as far as Ukraine.  Seller Odessalife is selling this on ebay from a 99c start.... (ebay membership dates from yesterday. I doubt that the pillow is much older.  :)   )

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Michael-Jackson-signed-Pillow-with-inscript...

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on September 17, 2015 at 4:27am

And meanwhile back at Simon Parr auctions for 27th September on Invaluable, 'Michael' has been hard at work.  S/he's obviously getting as bored with making fake drawings as I am with looking at them, so there are a couple of 'signed, printed' items here ie a printed Snoopy page and a printed Christmas card.

The already poor quality of the drawings seems to be taking a steep nosedive.  Hopefully because no-one is buying!

http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/searchLots.cfm?scp=c&catalogR...

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Permalink Reply by wascher on September 17, 2015 at 5:25am

In order of forgers....
Jason Makris
Jason Makris
Erick McKay Burgos
Michael Clark
Erick McKay Burgos
and last one Michael Clark

I will go add the two Erick items to his discussion

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Permalink Reply by simon parr on September 23, 2015 at 12:41pm

Hi Lizzie,

And to all. My name is David from Simon Parrs auctions. We tend to stay away from a site like this that is full of gossip, as it is just like a witch hunt. We'd like to address some of the comments on this site though regarding Michael Jackson drawings. Lizzie just uploads anything from Michael Jackson that appears from anywhere. Be it eBay, Gotta have rock n roll or ourselves.

With Michael Jackson's autograph these have varied a lot through the years and it certainly has imploded onto the scene more than that of a Marilyn Monroe autograph/Elvis autograph or any other big name star. We live in a digital age and due to the fact that Michael Jackson would literally sign sometimes a dozen autographs for one person at a time, this is why we see so much. MJ's value has decreased due to over exposure and due to the fact of how easy it is to find a MJ autograph. Try looking for a Glen Miller autograph or Howard Hughes: And this is why these autographs retain higher value. 

What is in question is the market that is full of questionable MJ autographs. Just on the 2nd September we saw a Michael Jackson signed pillow on a British tv programme called 'Four rooms' (also aired in the US). This was certified as genuine by most of the dealers on this show, and this style of writing has appeared in our auction, among many others. There will always be doubters of course.

We can say every autograph is passed by an expert, be that of Roger Epperson who certified many of the MJ drawings that have appeared on line, and that we have came across a few of his coa's to PSA, to Michael Frost, and many more top experts.

All of the hand writing styles of MJ that we have had in auction have also appeared at the big auction houses. HERITAGE AUCTIONS, JULIEN'S AUCTIONS, THE FAME BUREAU, PROFILES IN HISTORY, GOTTA HAVE ROCK N ROLL, OMEGA AUCTIONS, BLOOMSBURY'S, BONHAMS and probably many more.

Every one of these auctions I believe have been accused of fakes. PSA/DNA and Roger Epperson have also been accused of passing fake MJ items. 

So where does this leave it all for everyone. All we can do is look at the handwriting styles that have passed in these top auction houses and the opinions of PSA/DNA, Epperson and Mike Frost of Paas and accept their words, as no one in the industry is considered more than an expert than these people.

A lot of the time it is up to the buyer to make their own decision. We can only provide potential customers with the information we have. We rely on these experts to inform us of what is genuine or not. And we fail a lot of items. 

Remember: No one is forcing anyone to buy. These items listed are listed with an opinion only from an expert and it is down to the buyer if they buy. 

My personal opinion is I'd rather buy a nice house or a car than an autograph, cause all it generally is is a piece of paper that someone has scribbled on. But each to their own. I do not collect autographs. 

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Permalink Reply by simon parr on September 23, 2015 at 12:43pm

Further more the signed Christmas page and Snoopy signature, comes from a wealthy business man in the USA. 

The way we look at something is if it doesn't have a good coa/the signature hasn't appeared in one of the top auction houses then we will not take it in. 

David@simonparrsauctionsltd.

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on September 23, 2015 at 1:57pm

Hello David,

It's good the 'meet' you here. I'd be delighted to know more about the MJ items that are offered for sale in 'Simon Parr' auctions. As you've mentioned, I am particularly interested in the 'MJ signed drawings', as your auction house seems to offer more of these particular items than any other auction house in the world. Indeed, I would go as far as to say that your 'collection' of MJ drawings may possibly be larger than that owned by the Estate of Michael Jackson or indeed the extensive collection managed by Mr Livingstone-Strong. (Mr Livingstone-Strong, as you will know, was a partner with Michael for artistic purposes in the Jackson-Strong Alliance, and has written here that none of the drawings included in this thread are genuinely by Michael).

I agree with you that it is very helpful to have an autograph expert to review submitted items. I'm sure that the expert verifier for your auction house would be happy to be identified here, if you would care to name him / her? As you know however, autograph verification is not an exact science, and errors can be made, particularly if the original exemplars used for comparison purposes are themselves fakes.

Sadly, those seeking to obtain pecuniary advantage by deception (which is what fakers do) are able to offer their wares through many avenues these days, hence the rather varied sources of drawings in this thread. It is always interesting to compare and contrast signing styles which are seen for example on clothing items (eg tee shirts), pillowcases etc with the signing styles on drawings and other offerings.

I'm sure that you will agree that no-one wants to see fans taken advantage of, and the true culprits here are the fakers themselves. Sadly possession of 'wealth' is no guaranteee that someone is not offering (or indeed faking) signed items; possibly quite the contrary.

I wonder if you have wondered why it is that your auction house is sent quite so many signed drawings to sell; far more than other auction houses? Could it be perhaps that your 'expert' might be 'allowing through' items which other auction houses are refusing? I think that you should consider this very seriously and urgently. It is really not the case that buying fake items is the 'buyers decision'. If something is 'mis-represented' as such, then the seller is responsible in law. It would be very helpful to the fan commmunity (and to yourselves) if you could take steps to dis-associate yourselves from anyone who may be offering fake items to you.

On the subject of the 'Four Rooms' TV program, I'm afraid that I disagree that the purchasing dealer 'certified the pillow as genuine'. In fact, this dealer said that she was convinced 'because the seller appeared to be convinced of the genuine nature of the item'....ie it is the seller's legal responsibility to represent the facts correctly...at all points in the selling chain. None of the dealers on this TV show would 'certify' any such item as genuine as they are 'dealers' not authentication experts. I will be interested to see if anything appears in the press at some point in the future as regards the purchasing dealer having sold the item on, or as having asked for their money back!

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on September 23, 2015 at 2:26pm

PS I'm intrigued by Lot 306 on the 17th October 2015 auction....Do you know the origin of this piece?  I recognise it from a well-known art site, and sometimes people 'copy' works such as these without permission.  I do hope that this is not the case; the item is a photographic print and the artist's name has been removed.  I hope that you will at least add the artist's name to the listing, and I can let the artist know that you have credited them :) 

Oh..and it's not an oil painting, either.

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Permalink Reply by simon parr on September 23, 2015 at 2:29pm

Hi Lizzie,

Thank you for replying. One thing you can't do is say everything out there is fake. You don't even authenticate items for a living. Regarding four rooms you would never hear about the seller/dealer again, as this is how it works. Like the Julien auctions alledged fakes. I'm not defending Darren Julien (As I'm not an expert), but the news programme saw Roger Epperson saying he believed something was fake by just looking at a computer screen, and you need to see an item in person to tell if something is genuine.

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Permalink Reply by wascher on September 23, 2015 at 2:40pm

David generally speaking one does need to see an item in person to determine that it is not a copy, but the overall shapes of an actual autograph, when done so poorly - can be easily seen on these without seeing them in person.

You have 3 MJ forgers works currently in your MJ auctions.  Erick McKay Burgos out of California (US), Michael Clark (Ireland) and Jason Makris (Canada).  I can actually look at the signatures and tell you who did them, that's how known these forgeries/forgers are.

-w

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on September 23, 2015 at 2:41pm

Hi David,

I appreciate  your reply but I am afraid that we may have to 'agree to disagree'.

As to 'Four Rooms', I think that the truth will always come out eventually.  There is always someone somewhere who knows, and decides to contact the press with a good story.  As to the general run of ebay and auction sales, it may take years for truth to emerge, but with computer records, it is so much easier to look back and trace things through the 'supply chain'.   Fakers may be profiting now, but the tables can turn very quickly.  We can but wait and see!

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Permalink Reply by simon parr on September 23, 2015 at 2:46pm

Hi Lizzie,

Roger Epperson certified at least 30 MJ drawings that appeared on other sites before we obtained similar styles. Did Roger Epperson make a mistake (Did he not go, HOLD ON I'VE CERTIFIED 5 AND THERE IS MORE FROM THIS SOURCE), people believe Epperson is in on this himself.  However we don't know so we don't make allegations, but all you are doing is spending your life here accusing every auction house in the world, and eBay of anything signed by MJ being a fake. 

Every MJ item comes with a coa from either Roger Epperson/PSA,DNA,Mike Frost, JSA, or other top authenticators. Gary King AFTAL pointed out he believed a Buzz Aldrin autograph was fake, so we had delight of actually putting his coa up next to the image to say (Hey you think its fake, well you certified it!). 

Yes of course things can be certified from looking at past fake items, and then saying those are genuine. BUT WHEN YOU HAVE HERITAGE AUCTIONS, JULIENS AUCTIONS, OMEGA AUCTIONS, BONHAMS, GOTTA HAVE ROCK N ROLL, PROFILES IN HISTORY, THE FAME BUREAU, PEACOCK AUCTIONS, ALAN PARTRIDGE AUCTIONS AND BLOOMSBURY'S all that have sold similar pieces then you can't say everyone is wrong, but you and your team on live autograph. These as far as I know in the main use experts. I know Omega auctions themselves used to in the past ask if something had been ran through Roger Epperson and then wouldn't put it in auction if it hadn't, but then there were MJ drawings put in their auction, that I'm sure you would say was questionable.

Why was our auction house approached by a lot of MJ drawings. Simple cause we hold a lot of Bert Stern: Marilyn Monroe signed items. I know someone on here didn't know who Bert Stern was, but we get consigners with a lot of items from one artist, and it's advertising that brings them in. Our auctions also have a no fee/no sale, where as most auctions out there make consigners wait months or a year to list items and then charge a fee for non sales. That's why we get a lot of consigners. But there again everyone else does. 

A lot of auction houses will refuse MJ items as there has been that much sold. And in a lot of cases there isn't that much profit in MJ. Take a $30,000 MJ fedora in Juliens, you'd be lucky to get $4,000 for that now. 

The consigner is responsible for items in auction. It is in the terms and conditions. And our buyers are happy, as we can show examples of similar items in various auctions around the world. As we say no one can prove 100% , not even if you were there at the time, as one can just use photoshop. But what we don't do is go around and accuse everyone of fakes. 

To get the best chance of something being real use Epperson or PSA/DNA. Look at the RR case with Epperson. As I say I wouldn't buy anything of this nature. 1). The value can drop drastically 2). Too many fakes out there.

FOUR ROOMS: 2 dealers said they believed the seller. The seller said the MJ pillow had a coa from MJ. Darren Julien himself will tell you that MJ never signed coa's. 

So at the end of the day. We aren't the experts, we rely on the experts for their opinions and coa's. 

I think you have spent years now listing alledged fake MJ items, and it's probably time you found another hobby. 

I have enjoyed giving our side of this argument and proven we aren't someone who doesn't care. We are on the same side here.

Thank you again for your time.

Regards,

David@simonparrsauctionsltd

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