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Authenticity is Everything
Authenticators... How can anyone say who is good and who isn't?
Hey guys, thank you for allowing me into the group. I do have some frustrations to express and I see it all as good honest chat, so please no one take offence as none is meant, lol.
I have been reading some of the posts in there and it seems like people like to slam some but not others. I see, Morales, Drew Max for example are some who seem to take alot of hits, yet I have seen a lot of issues with PSA/DNA as well.... At the end of the day, its strictly an opinion and nothing more..... I have several HUGE autographs, some of which I know are authentic just by the source they came from.
I have a Shoeless Joe Jackson ball that would have been signed after his playing days (and no, not by his wife, but the ball was signed by himself) but it came from a very close family relative who personally had it signed back in the day and it sat in their house for decades, it doesn't get any more genuine than that, yet when I posted a picture of it, people were quick to slam it because apparently they know it all... or do they?
Unfortunately, this industry has taken a pounding because of the a-holes who have mad a business of screwing people, I get that... but everyone also thinks they are an expert, and in some cases, people really have no clue.
As a 15 year old, I was a purchaser for several card stores here in Ontario Canada, I know Hockey Cards better than most.... I wanted to see how Beckett would rank their grading compared to my own education.... I brought it to them at a huge show we have here in Toronto 2 times a year.... they said at the time that the card should be ranked a 5 out of 10. I agreed.... 3 weeks later, their apparent "Hockey Expert" sent it back to me as a 2.5.... now, I didn't knock him out like I wanted too, lol. But I did approach them at the next show, they were embarrassed and asked me to resubmit it, it still came back less, I called them to ask.... they had no idea.... its now going back for a 3rd time.... and these are professionals who advertise as being so....
Now, getting back onto autographs, when I didn't tell people the story behind it, they said it was a fake, then when I said the story behind it, their opinions started to change..... so, at the end of the day... who is right and who isn't?
I do think that they try their best to get it right, but who will ever be 100%, not going to happen. People talk about the bad situations with Morales and Max, but I am willing to bet, they have gotten it right WAY more than not and they probably have the same winning % as PSA/DNA in the long run....
I usually don't comment on things but I do believe that in the end, if your gut tells you its good, then your most of the time going to be bang on... and no one should let that take the fun of collecting away from things. Be careful, educate yourself and make the best decision possible. I don't think guys like Max and Morales are any worse than the others to be totally honest and I have been collecting for MANY Years.... and lets not forget, people can very easily post things online that can seriously effect someones reputation and if you do your homework as suggested... it seems all of them have negative feeds posted on them....
Just my thoughts guys, again, not looking to insult anyone, but I think some posts can be a bit much....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Hi Mark,
This is a good discussion. In the case of your Joe Jackson, the concerns are obvious, even before you authenticate the style of the autograph: the autograph looks brand new and perfect, but the ball is worn to a frazzle and Jackson's signature is clearly on top of the ageing of the ball. The chance of it being real, in my opinion, is absolutely zero.
Here's a link to it:
http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/54738251?profile...
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That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Christopher Morales or AAU/Drew Max issued a certificate or letter of authenticity on it.
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Permalink Reply by Mike T on
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Signed in felt tip sharpie over 30 years before the sharpie was invented.
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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"...but it came from a very close family relative who personally had it signed back in the day and it sat in their house for decades, it doesn't get any more genuine than that...:
How about something like a contract or other verifiable document? None of this has much to do with the qualities exhibited (or not) by the signed ball IMHO. That ball presented poorly. Not one person in that thread agreed with your observations. Fountain pen ink fades, things wear in normal patterns...under normal circumstances, and so on. I just look at the ink - stories are just that - stories. Ever sell one? Additional data, "stories", can sometimes be very useful, usually in tandem with something already there to explain or nail something down, but they are never primary to me. Sometimes they reveal much, but that is sometimes in the other direction from "authentic".
My own father - he told me he met Lugosi Sr. in 1953 or thereabouts (he provided enough details that I could see this was likely) - but if he gave me a "personally signed" photo that was simply not in Lugosi's hand...well, my dear old dad could stand on his head - it is not genuine.
I place only a (slightly varying) very judicious and limited amount of weight on these stories and names - in the end it in up to the ink. Same as if something has papers from whoever - best of the best - if it has problems, I will certainly pass. I see some people saying "OK" about some sigs based on who is selling them or authenticated them and that is like buying the grade and plastic of a slabbed coin and not the coin inside. It just seems to be a bad idea that will eventually lead to problems. With the coin example, if you did not know there are A, B and C "versions" of "MS65" you are in for quite the surprise if you have been buying plastic and not seeing what is truly upper end.
Eric
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"I don't think guys like Max and Morales are any worse than the others to be totally honest"
I'm gonna stop you right there, because that is a ridiculous statement. PSA and JSA may not be perfect but they are infinitely better than Max and Morales. The reason you get autographs authenticated is to increase resale value, and there is no disputing the fact that resale value of PSA/JSA items is much higher than anything with a Max/Morales cert. Max/Morales have no where near the same "winning %" as PSA or JSA.
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!!!!! +100
Eric
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Permalink Reply by Terry G. on
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You don't understand what authentication is. When you hire a professional to authenticate, you are paying for them to provide you with an experienced opinion, nothing more. When you post an image on a public forum such as this and ask for input on authenticity, you will receive exactly what you paid for- plenty of so-called "experts" chiming in with their opinions, based on what God only knows. It doesn't matter whether you know the item is real or not, you will lose. Simply because you either tried to fool the "experts" or you are wrong despite any facts to prove otherwise. Feel free to ask someone (who replies to your posts regarding an items authenticity) about their qualifications to provide that opinion. You probably won't get too many answers, and the ones you do get will not impress much. It's the internet- everyone is an expert with an opinion..
As for the pro authenticators, whomever you choose, Google away and you will find dirt on ALL of them. They specialize in fighting among each other, hurting the hobby every step of the way. The fact that what they say is what provides them with income is all you need to know- there is no winner with a greater percentage of correct authentications, there is no standard to judge them against, because they can't have that- it hurts them financially. Every single source for authentication has stories about mistakes they made, most readily supplied by their competition or whomever they are currently involved in a lawsuit against. It's ugly business and it's not going to change anytime soon- they are too petty to realize they are hurting the very hobby that keeps them alive.
We are way beyond hurting reputations in this hobby- just look at the last few weeks witch-burnings that took place here in regards to a sellers items authenticity- man, that pig pile of hatred was something to behold. People have zero regard for truth anymore- they say authenticity is everything, but authenticity extends to us as human beings as well, and around here, we have some real pretenders...
I've said it a thousand times, many here do not agree, but until the pro authenticators stop the in-fighting, the trivial lawsuits, the name-calling, the lies, this hobby will continue to falter. Until the authenticators come to some sort of unification on standards, on process, on direction and they all fall in line and self-monitor for failure, the proliferation of fakes and frauds will slowly kill the hobby. The sheer power a unified front would have in forcing outlets like eBay to handle forgeries would be amazing. The general public would LOVE to have an iconic source to determine authenticity and feel safe about buying an item, and could easily dismiss anything without that hallmark. I feel that's why PSA has been so successful- being the first name-brand in the hobby, despite some obvious issues, carries weight with the public. The incredible amount of money this could bring in for pro authenticators would be staggering but no, they choose to fight, smear, sue, name call and generally be a nuisance to one another for nothing more than spite.
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There seems to be a lot in this post who already have their backs up and I'm not sure why? I asked questions and hey were honest and legit.... The ball hasn't been authenticated and won't be, I don't need it to be because I'm not re-selling it so I don't need to worry, but I know first off it's not a sharpie as suggested and I know exactly where it came from.... So I've just proven that everyone's opinions are wrong.... I've already got a letter from the member who got the ball, but really what does that prove? Nothing!
What gets my back up is that I simply tried to start a good innocent conversation and people already making judgement and as for the ball, they have only see. It in pictures..... Which can't determine much in the end.... I'm VERY experienced in autographs... About 30 years experience and my personal collection will outweigh most on this site, and that's why I ask why even bother with many of these so called authenticates as they are just as bad as the forgers themselves..... I'm not out to offend anyone but I ask that they show the same respect back.... After all, this hobby is for fun no?
This particular signature I know is genuine because I know the source, I know their connections to baseball and can easily trust through their employment and experience that this ball is extremely genuine.... But then again, there will be someone who still goes on about it being a fake..... It will never end.... Perhaps because some feel if they don't own it then it must me a fake? Who knows....
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Hello Mike,
Well, in 30 years serious collecting of superb material you never encountered faded fountain pen? It is an honest and relevant question not meant to harm or insult. It begs asking in this context.
The experience and employment of the source have nothing to do with the ink or ball. It is tertiary at best. That is like thinking the rep of a seller is ironclad and you don't need to use your eyes IMHO.
Eric
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I've seen lots of faded ink but I've also seen some that hasn't.... This ball is proof that not all ink fades.... I've known he had it for my entire life in his closet and I'm 42, again, I do appreciate your opinion but I know this ball is valid and legit
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Hi Mark,
Well, I'm 45 and that has nothing to do with anything. You did state you knew fountain pen doesn't fade. Now you say you knew this?
If this ball if proof that some don't fade, why don't other balls of similar vintage signed with the same type of pen and ink not resemble this ball?
When did you first see this ball?
Eric
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Mike,
That baseball was decades old and worn to a frazzle long before it was signed. Joe Jackson died in 1951. It's 65 years later and his signature on the ball looks like it could have been signed yesterday. How do you explain that?
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